[KazonPADD]

What would?

[DarkSabre]

What would?

Any deck that relies on grabbing an equipment card or a personnel or an interrupt during mission attempts would be vulnerable to a change of the rules.

MACOs & Starfleet are really the only decks that would be harmed from 22nd and they aren’t the most powerful of them.

However some TNG decks, DS9, Dominion, (mainly Fed decks honestly) who hold off downloading cards till mission attempts would have change their strategy.

If we are going to change a download rule we should change the rule for downloading one personnel a turn to being one personnel only on your turn because it really screws up dilemma downloads of personnel.

[Latok]

What would?

Any deck that relies on grabbing an equipment card or a personnel or an interrupt during mission attempts would be vulnerable to a change of the rules.

MACOs & Starfleet are really the only decks that would be harmed from 22nd and they aren’t the most powerful of them.

However some TNG decks, DS9, Dominion, (mainly Fed decks honestly) who hold off downloading cards till mission attempts would have change their strategy.

He might've been asking what would make a Romulan/Vulcan deck blink.

If we are going to change a download rule we should change the rule for downloading one personnel a turn to being one personnel only on your turn because it really screws up dilemma downloads of personnel.

That'd definitely have to come with an Enemies of the State nerf though.

[DarkSabre]

He might've been asking what would make a Romulan/Vulcan deck blink.

Not many things can esp when they can unstop their ship and crew. It’s a minor inconvenience usually.

That'd definitely have to come with an Enemies of the State nerf though.

It’s called battling or orbital bombardment or antique machine gun or stop one, making it a separate away team somehow, and then thine own self the other two...many ideas can be done. It isn’t any worse than other ‘walls’


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[Latok]

That'd definitely have to come with an Enemies of the State nerf though.

It’s called battling or orbital bombardment or antique machine gun or stop one, making it a separate away team somehow, and then thine own self the other two...many ideas can be done. It isn’t any worse than other ‘walls’


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Except without a limit on how many times they can download on your turn, then yeah it is worse then other walls it'd be the closest a dilemma could be to unbeatable.

[geraldkw]

It's buried in Dilemma Resolution - Targets:

Targets – The targets of a dilemma include
the cards it affects (e.g., personnel selected
to die), a personnel, ship, or facility that the
dilemma is placed on, or a target destination
for a relocation. Targets may be chosen by
random selection, opponent’s choice, or
owner’s choice. When a dilemma specifies a
superlative such as “strongest,” “most
CUNNING,” or “highest total attributes,” and
there is a tie, the opponent of the player
encountering the dilemma gets to choose. If
no personnel remain to be targeted by a
dilemma just encountered, because you
used game text that allows you to remove
them, replace that dilemma under the
mission (the mission attempt ends). For
example, Elim Garak (“May avoid any
random selection”) encounters Armus – Skin
of Evil. If you choose to have Elim Garak
avoid the random selection, there is no one
left to be targeted by Armus, and it is
replaced under the mission. Another card
that might remove all personnel before you
can resolve a dilemma is Flight of the
Intruder.

Of course, when the Revolution comes and s stop working during dilemmas unless they are valid responses (killing this trick and the dumb Kes trick and the dumb Nilz Baris trick...), this will be much less of a bother.

Viva la Revolucion! Hasta la victoria siempre!

But the Dominion takes a bad hit if that happens, maybe errata making shape-shift and flight of the intruder work differently so they can sometimes be valid responses would be in order.

Edit: I reread flight of the Intruder so nevermind, it seems to already allow bailing on mission attempts since it suspends play by it's own game text.

[BCSWowbagger]

Edit: I reread flight of the Intruder so nevermind, it seems to already allow bailing on mission attempts since it suspends play by it's own game text.

Precisely. That's really why Flight exists, I think -- to guarantee the escape of the Founders so your Jemmies won't have to commit suicide, as was the rule at the time.

I'm building up a spreadsheet of special downloads in the game and the effects it would have if you could only use valid responses during mission attempts and battles. Then we can stop speculating about who would get hit hardest and instead just look at the data.

[Iron Prime]

Edit: I reread flight of the Intruder so nevermind, it seems to already allow bailing on mission attempts since it suspends play by it's own game text.

Precisely. That's really why Flight exists, I think -- to guarantee the escape of the Founders so your Jemmies won't have to commit suicide, as was the rule at the time.

I'm building up a spreadsheet of special downloads in the game and the effects it would have if you could only use valid responses during mission attempts and battles. Then we can stop speculating about who would get hit hardest and instead just look at the data.

Awesome! If I can help in some way let me know!

May I also take a moment to say, that while I understand and accept the reasoning, I really miss the style of wording on cards like Flight.

[PantsOfTheTalShiar]

Of course, when the Revolution comes and s stop working during dilemmas unless they are valid responses (killing this trick and the dumb Kes trick and the dumb Nilz Baris trick...), this will be much less of a bother.

Viva la Revolucion! Hasta la victoria siempre!

Yeah that would negate the entire MACO playbook

Not sure if you think that's a good thing or a bad thing, but... it would force them to plan ahead.

Actually, that download on MACO Amanda Cole is a pretty good argument for this change. If you draw Combat-Ready: Jury-Rig and have it in your hand, ready to go, when her crew encounters The Cloud, you can't use it, because it's not a valid response. But you CAN use it if Amanda Cole is there and uses her , because does not give a darn about any timing rules anywhere. You can gain that extra ENGINEER you need to save the ship from being damaged and double-stopped, all because you didn't stock the card normally.

That's goofy. The game should reward you for drawing interrupts when you need them, not punish you for stocking them anywhere other than your Tent.

The change would make CR:JR mostly useless, so it's not a good argument for making the change. The designers could have made CR:JR a valid response to a dilemma, but they didn't. I agree that we have too many cards that are only usable when special downloaded. A lot of those are just the consequences of off-loading gametext when converting to 1E -- like Amanda Cole and CR:JR. Fortunately, we aren't obligated to do conversions anymore.

[DarkSabre]

That'd definitely have to come with an Enemies of the State nerf though.

It’s called battling or orbital bombardment or antique machine gun or stop one, making it a separate away team somehow, and then thine own self the other two...many ideas can be done. It isn’t any worse than other ‘walls’


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Except without a limit on how many times they can download on your turn, then yeah it is worse then other walls it'd be the closest a dilemma could be to unbeatable.

Didn’t realize that. Yeah that would have to be changed


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[BCSWowbagger]

GUYS THERE'S A LOT OF THESE.

I've got 160 done, out of a total of something like 430. Gimme a few days.

Biggest surprise so far: under the current rule, Krajensky Founder can essentially drop a Cytherians (Issue Secret Orders) on any ship he's infiltrating at suspends-play speed, including in the middle of a mission attempt (or at the end of a mission attempt, just before the mission is solved). I like Issue Secret Orders, but never realized it could be abused that way through DL timing.

May I also take a moment to say, that while I understand and accept the reasoning, I really miss the style of wording on cards like Flight.

So do I. (Ferengi Gas Trap tried to gesture in that direction.)

The change would make CR:JR mostly useless

It'd put CR:JR on the same plane as other temporary-gain-skills cards: Dominion Hierarchy, You Can't Kill The Captain, Venus Drug, Fitting In, Comfort Women (first function), Vulcan Mindmeld, Supplant Opposite, Mot's Advice... and, most importantly, with CR:JR itself, whenever used by someone other that specific MACO once per game.

The designers could have made CR:JR a valid response to a dilemma, but they didn't.

Agreed! Yet our current rule allows it to respond to a dilemma (in this one specific circumstance) anyway, because of the DL icon's (I liked Allen's wording) "Super Magical SuperPower" timing.

[Clerasil ToB]

I'd like to point out that some of the mentioned cards were definately designed that way because they should have exactly this ability, to cheat with Dilemmas. Downloads of Out of Time, The Gift, all the Vulcan Mindmeld . I don't see that this "Dilemma bugging" is a real broken stuff we must get rid of, it's just nasty. In my opinion changing a long existing rule or making an Errata should only be done to cure some broken stuff (or to make future gamedesign easier).

I've lost a lot of games because of that, on the other hand I've won some. I'm realy getting mad when I've managed to stop that personell and it still can use the download to save the ship (I know this is for a "stopped personell" discussion, but nevertheless this was the only time when I really hated the combination of both rules).

There should be some mechanisms to cheat during a dilemma. The CC recently started to bring out some card with the "during a mission attemt" or a similar phrase to make them useable. I think we all agree that some of the downloaded cards should be playable during a mission attempt. So a rule change must lead into a massive wave of Errata to make all those cards work again. On the other hand I really love the way Vulcan Mindmeld must be used: before a mission attempt if you have it in your hand or during a mission attempt if you use a special download. To make both possibilities still work there have to be two quite similar cards...

[sexecutioner]

I've never once thought after playing a game 'Omg! Something needs done about that icon'

I've seen ingenious ways of using it though.

Just Computer Crash them. The Meta demands it...

[Winner of Borg]

guys, calm down.

we've had special downloads since First Contact. many cards have been designed with "suspends play" timing in mind. a special download represents something that's actually built into the card, always at hand, usable in a pinch. (in 2E, many such downloadable verbs would actually be abilities printed on that personnel, which would allow for different timing on each - which btw also caused a lot of discussion and confusion... in 1E, there's just no space on the cards for that.)

in my opinion, 1E's special downloads are doing a FANTASTIC job modelling this concept:
- the thing you're downloading is separate, yet always at hand
- the rule is deceptively simple, yet creates interesting, powerful interactions
- it still requires choice during deck building (most decks cannot possibly include all downloads that would be available on their cards)
- if you really don't like the concept, it can still be fought in-game (Containment Field, Computer Crash, ...)

yes, getting out of the middle of a mission attempt is powerful. so is adding skills during a mission attempt. of course it's worth building decks around maximizing these abilities. but it's neither creating massive NPEs nor pushing game speed to unacceptable levels. please don't change what's not broken.

on a personal note:
i don't know about you, but i grow attached to my cards in play, and don't want to lose them. i've always sought out ways to play 1E "safe": staying in other quadrants, scanning dilemmas, ... however, i also vastly perfer attempting with all i've got to having to micro-manage crews, or redshirting. big attempts have grown increasingly risky since the Scans were banned (and then nerfed). Mission Debriefing punishes big attempts enough already. Cytherians (with 1E's liberal battling) and Denevan Neural Parasites punish big attempts way too much.
you think the game is slow now? removing the possibility of "emergency" special downloads like The Gift and Smoke Bomb and Out of Time, while keeping the dilemma power level unchanged, would definitely not work for me. my experience from games where i didn't draw my emergency downloads (or was facing Computer Crash), shows that, forced to (knowingly) play under these conditions, i'll take loads of time before each mission attempt, sorting through my personnel, thinking through everything that could go wrong, selecting the perfect team, trying to keep everybody as safe as possible. sometimes i'll start redshirting (ignoring all the possible redshirt punishment, because the prospect of losing all i've reported to a single bad dilemma outgrows the sum of all redshirt punishment in the game). and i've hated each such game. if that's something my opponents have to devote significant resources to, i'll swallow it up and move on. but if the game of 1E were changed to such conditions globally, permanently, i do believe that would make me quit 1E for good.

[DarkSabre]

I think the current dilemma manipulation by cards that aren’t personnel are what is making people lash out at SD during attempts.

*squeaky wheel*

Dilemma manipulation should never be easy and when it’s on a personnel at least you can try and stop or kill them. I do think a stopped personnel shouldn’t be allowed to use their SD.




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