This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#457239
I'm building a deck for an Open-ish event that I'm going to run. Subspace Schism is clearly a powerful card. It's on the CC ban list, and Writ is a silver bullet for it.

But I've never seen the card played. I'm not sure I understand how best to abuse it. I have a theory, but I want to know if it's right. I searched the forum for every single time everyone has EVER mentioned Subspace Schism in 1E Gameplay, but nothing really came up aside from a single complaint made by Jason Drake eight year ago about how Schism unduly influenced deck design.

So help me out: how did this seemingly fairly innocent card get banned? Did somebody bring 25 copies and mill out their opponents' entire draw decks or something?
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#457250
Schism has been abused in combination with cards that let you see what your opponent is drawing (Alien Probe and Heisenberg Compensators in particular). In these cases it can act as a global nullifier.

In the distant past, this combo was abused to create lockout decks (e.g. seed 6 Shaka, When the Walls Fell and Schism any Diplomacy personnel you happen to draw). With downloading and Regenerate/Isomag this is less of a concern today, but the possibility of the combo punishes decks that draw cards naturally and rewards decks that download everything they need. Whether this is good or not is debatable.

Reading the card again, there is another loophole that I've never heard discussed before:
Plays within five seconds of either players' card draw. That player must discard that card and re-draw.
Nowhere does it say that the card still has to be in their hand. Furthermore it is not a "just" action (at least that word does not appear). So, as an example, if you play a Kivas as your card play, then free-report a personnel you just drew without waiting 5 seconds, I can play Subspace Schism to discard them. There is an easy way around this -- wait 5 seconds after each draw -- but this is terrible for gameplay.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#457254
Rachmaninoff wrote: Furthermore it is not a "just" action (at least that word does not appear).
Glossary does list it as a response to drawing a card (actions - step 3: results), which is funnier because Schism's entry doesn't walk back that 5 second rule.

I'd say treat it as a valid response to drawing a card, because if this saw any (ab)use, the errata would very likely change to that. (Paging errata, if you're looking for an easy win... :cheersL: )

The fun of waiting becomes "how do you know which card I drew?" (Easy example: Kivas, draw 3, quickly shuffle hand, report personnel - was that one of my free draws? How can you prove it after-the-fact? Blah.)

Anyway, back to the abuse plan. :)

Folks have already covered the lockout archetype, so I think the only other option is part of a mill deck (where you go for the double-deckout). And I'm not sure this is the most efficient card to do that with?

If I was handed Schisms for a "go break this" project, I'd run something similar to Rach's plan, and turn 1 Heisenberg Compensators then Schism any time they try to draw something relevant. Back it up with as many copies of The Line Must Be Drawn Here as the deck has room for to punish nullification. Stock some Masakas to deal with any cases where they get ahead of you.. there isn't a lot of generic hand attack in 1E.
User avatar
Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#457255
I mean a mirror image, Masaka and as many schisms as you can run could mill a good chunk of a deck.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#457256
pfti wrote:I mean a mirror image, Masaka and as many schisms as you can run could mill a good chunk of a deck.
Yeah, and I keep thinking you run Arguers to force the Masakas (and/or score the points you need). Then, a suite of Fire Sculptor , Burial Ground , and Changeling Sweep to prevent recursion.

It would be an interesting project, since you'd end up with a deck that's not really playing 1E "properly" at all - I'm not sure this even needs any ships or personnel!
User avatar
 
By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#457257
Some one won a tournament back in the day like that. I think it was all KFC and Arguers. Just play the KFC on the other player until they're decked....
User avatar
 
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#457258
Thanks for reminding me everyone why I don't play open format. If I wanted several hours of stupidity and nut punching I'd go back and watch the jackass movie.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#457259
Now I want to see if I can make this work in OTF.

Obviously you lose Schism itself, but I'm starting to think it's the weakest part of the combo...
User avatar
 
By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#457260
Oh, Heaney, what have you done...?
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#457262
If you lose Schism, then how are you getting their cards into the discard pile for Sculptors/Burial Grounds/Sweeps?

Also, while the mass-milling deck we've been discussing is "abusive" in the sense that it's outside of the spirit of the game, it's not yet clear to me that it would actually dominate the game, for two main reasons:

1. Card economy: Subspace Schism replaces the card your opponent lost, but leaves you with one less card in your hand. A mass-milling deck has to continually draw cards at a faster rate than the opponent, or else you'll be out of Schisms before your opponent is out of cards. And if you can draw cards at this rate, you may be better off just playing the game the normal way.
2. Randomly Schism-ing doesn't do anything until your opponent is out of cards. Until then, there is no functional difference between having a card Schism-ed and not drawing it due to the shuffle.

If there's potential for abuse in Schism-ing and thinning the discard pile, I think it needs to be based on targeted elimination.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#457265
Rachmaninoff wrote:If you lose Schism, then how are you getting their cards into the discard pile for Sculptors/Burial Grounds/Sweeps?
I'll admit, my brain substituted Wheel of Fortune for Masaka for a moment, and I forgot that Masaka tucks your old hand under your deck.

And so does Scorched Hand... hmm.. Will need to ponder. (Sadly, searching for "discard" is NOT useful. ;) )
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#457269
MidnightLich wrote:You guys always start these interesting discussions right after I post my column. :P

-crp
Just giving you grist for next week!
User avatar
Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#457346
Hoss-Drone wrote:Thanks for reminding me everyone why I don't play open format. If I wanted several hours of stupidity and nut punching I'd go back and watch the jackass movie.
That's sig line material there, that is. :lol:
1EFQ: Game of two halves

First: Rescue Captives is OP, there should[…]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Happy birthday to @Takket ! :D :thumbsup: […]

Opponents turn

Remodulation