[JeBuS]

So, I was explaining STCCG to a friend who had never played the game (and still hasn't, but there's always hope). One of the many things he chose to delve into at length was the 1E mechanics for dilemmas. Mainly that they "seed" before the game and basically are immutable (excepting some limited tech). I also did my best to explain the 2E dilemma rules (though I'm not a 2E player) as a contrast. He had problems with those too. Mainly that it was basically random and combos were less likely to have an effect. He actually came up with a proposal that would seemingly work, and probably speed up the beginning of the game quite a bit. It would also allow for a form of interaction that was essentially the main form of interaction for a long time - dilemmas. A couple of solvers facing off against each other would no longer be games of simultaneous solitaire.

Essentially, dilemmas become their own separate deck. Any time a player declares their intention to attempt / scout / scan / whatever a mission, the opponent may "seed" any number of dilemmas from their dilemma deck beneath that mission, essentially placing their combos on the fly. The attempting player encounters the dilemmas as normal.

If an attempt ends, any unrevealed dilemmas return to the dilemma deck for possible future use. Any dilemmas that have been revealed either go back under the dilemma as normal or leave play as normal.

What about shared missions? Each player decides what they want to put under the mission on each attempt, with normal "your turn, my turn" alternation.

What about artifacts and other cards that "seed like dilemmas"? We didn't come to a conclusion on the best way to handle those. Simplest is to treat them as you treat dilemmas. They go in the dilemma deck, and you can use them the same way (including taking them back into dilemma pile if they aren't encountered).

All the cards in the dilemma deck still count against your total of seed cards you're allowed. Perhaps a dilemma deck doorway needs to be created to offload the rules? Perhaps it seeds for free.

A new element of strategy comes into play for the game, where you decide how many dilemmas you want to throw at your opponent on his early mission attempts. It's possible to burn through your dilemmas before all the missions have been attempted / scouted / etc.

There are a lot of edge cases I'm sure we missed and I know there are several we discussed that I haven't outlined here because I've completely forgotten.

What do you folks think? Are there major holes here? I kind of want to play a bunch of test games to see how this would work (but I've got nobody to play casual games with at the moment, thus trying to recruit this friend).

[Kaiser]

For kitchen table games, just do whatever you want. Try out stuff, see what works for you, be happy.

I do not see any chance for something like to be included in any of the supported 1e formats, the closest you will likely see are the "downloader" dilemmas like Shore Leave. It is part of what makes 1e different from 2e. My gut reaction is that the mechanic you describe will put good or experienced players at an even greater advantage, and give the less experienced player even less of a chance. Part of the appeal of 1e is that you can never be sure whether your opponent will actually attempt a certain mission, or if yes, when. Using your system, they are guaranteed to hit you with what they have prepared. Veteran players could probably always pick the one dilemma or combo to stop or kill or cripple your deck, because they have a much better idea what to look out for (skills, attributes, characteristics, ...).

[Takket]

an interesting idea, would require a LOT of play testing to prove out......

i would be concerned about it slowing the game down even further. it is is right now before attempting missions there is a ton of moving around and positioning and beaming to get everything "just so" in case you hit a LoP or God or Jol yichu!

now after all that i'm going to take my own time once you announce to go through my combo and modify it based on my memory of who went where. For instance you are attempting hunt for DNA and i had a space combo featuring LoP and Cytherians, my goal to be sending your big crew of all the people needed to do that mission on a trip. well, you just attempted with one ship with 12 people aboard so now i'm going to reconsider. i think you will pass LoP so I'll just leave it in my dilemma pile now an save it for later. I think a lot of thinking along those lines would be going on so after you spent 2 or 3 minutes prepping your crew, now i spend 2 or 3 minutes prepping my dilemmas. all added time vs the old OTF way of just batch seeding.

also a card like Genesis Effect is basically useless now since i'll never seed whatever dilemma you announced.

The flip side is, if i'm paying close enough attention, i can do more with less dilemma wise. Red shirting would basically be impossible since everyone is just going to hit you with LoP as their ONLY dilemma for an attempt with 1 or 2 people..........

Defiantly would need a LARGE play-testing effort

[Latok]

You had me with something that was workable until this point.

If an attempt ends, any unrevealed dilemmas return to the dilemma deck for possible future use. Any dilemmas that have been revealed either go back under the dilemma as normal or leave play as normal.

Why am I not seeding every dilemma I have under every mission attempt? There are two options

1) You pass all the dilemmas and get the mission then win the game.
2) You get stopped by a dilemma, however deep in to the stack, and then the rest return.

The idea would speed up the seed phase but with this caveat it'd double or triple the time actually playing the game because you're going from facing 4-12 dilemmas to solve 2 or 3 missions to facing every single dilemma the opponent brings to solve 2 missions.

[SudenKapala]

I have often thought about a similar system (based on 2e concept), but it never came to fruition. I wanted to deviate as little as possible from the original rules, just speed up the seed phase. I never got the details right.
But to think about it again: I wonder if a feasible, elegant way could be devised to limit the number of DILs you can draw and/or seed from the DIL deck, at a given mission (like in 2e, but from within 1e resources). This is what I couldn't solve to my satisfaction. But maybe you have ideas for this?

(I actually abandoned my attempt at this when I had succesfully devised an alternate idea, to randomly and legally seed all DILs, because that fit better inside the existing rules and it suited my needs while playing new players when we didn't want to take time to rethink combos. For us, that really works. It's a very different game, of course; but fun.)

[TheHumanHydra]

You had me with something that was workable until this point.

If an attempt ends, any unrevealed dilemmas return to the dilemma deck for possible future use. Any dilemmas that have been revealed either go back under the dilemma as normal or leave play as normal.

Why am I not seeding every dilemma I have under every mission attempt? There are two options

1) You pass all the dilemmas and get the mission then win the game.
2) You get stopped by a dilemma, however deep in to the stack, and then the rest return.

The idea would speed up the seed phase but with this caveat it'd double or triple the time actually playing the game because you're going from facing 4-12 dilemmas to solve 2 or 3 missions to facing every single dilemma the opponent brings to solve 2 missions.

Why not adjust it so the dilemmas you choose to seed remain seeded under the mission?

[Latok]

You had me with something that was workable until this point.

If an attempt ends, any unrevealed dilemmas return to the dilemma deck for possible future use. Any dilemmas that have been revealed either go back under the dilemma as normal or leave play as normal.

Why am I not seeding every dilemma I have under every mission attempt? There are two options

1) You pass all the dilemmas and get the mission then win the game.
2) You get stopped by a dilemma, however deep in to the stack, and then the rest return.

The idea would speed up the seed phase but with this caveat it'd double or triple the time actually playing the game because you're going from facing 4-12 dilemmas to solve 2 or 3 missions to facing every single dilemma the opponent brings to solve 2 missions.

Why not adjust it so the dilemmas you choose to seed remain seeded under the mission?

TBH there are a lot of other problems, naturally when you're trying to change a fundamental rule of a decades old game, this was just the first one I came to. There is some discussion here about seeding dilemmas after outposts.

[Enabran]

Essentially, dilemmas become their own separate deck. Any time a player declares their intention to attempt / scout / scan / whatever a mission, the opponent may "seed" any number of dilemmas from their dilemma deck beneath that mission, essentially placing their combos on the fly. The attempting player encounters the dilemmas as normal.

If an attempt ends, any unrevealed dilemmas return to the dilemma deck for possible future use. Any dilemmas that have been revealed either go back under the dilemma as normal or leave play as normal.

...

What do you folks think? Are there major holes here? I kind of want to play a bunch of test games to see how this would work (but I've got nobody to play casual games with at the moment, thus trying to recruit this friend).

What a terrible Idea!
The first mission will get a Dead end!
The next mission will get Denevan Neural Parasites, if you are attempting with many people. Or Lack of preparation, or any wall that you will never break because I remembered what people you have played.