[BCSWowbagger]

So, question for the group: have Ref problems been fixed enough that we can ban Tribunal of Q and return to traditional Q-the-Referee cycling?

I would argue that's too low a bar. The only Ref cards we should have in the end are actual meta "I have anticipated your move, and now you have activated my Trap Card muahaha!" (insert Mr. Burns "Excellent" gif here)

(This is in contrast to the Dark Ages where Ref cards were "stock this to not die".)

This is absolutely correct, but I see this as a process. Eventually, I want a pile so small Director Charlie can drown it in his bathtub and rid OTF of them forever. I just don't think the game/community is quite there yet (if you disagree, suggest banning Containment Field and see what happens).

But I think we are to the point where, though we can't actually abolish the icon, we can at least get rid of the Revised Format Referee Pile, which Civil War / Tribunal brought into OTF. That is, I think we could ban Tribunal today (or Civil War, I don't really know which is best). We would then, of course, continue the slow process of crushing the life out of the rest of 'em.

[Klauser]

... Ref piles became extremely important during the game's Dark Age, to the point where it was no longer sustainable to run games without them, and new Ref infrastructure (Tribunal + Civil War) grew up around that. But there are fewer and fewer cards in the game, fewer and fewer of them matter, and more and more of them are pretty narrow meta calls.

Apologies ahead of time here, but this is a soapbox issue for me - I was an ambassador during the end of Decipher's 1E run.

I can tell you when Q the Referee was released in the Tribbles expansion, it was pretty clear the game was broken enough to need this "rough patch" of a mechanism to keep the game playable. Much of this was due to Deciphers refusal to errata cards and resisted banning any more than Raise the Stakes in competitive play. And it was made equally as clear later that we were NOT going to get any 1E cards to rebalance the game after 2E's release.

IMO, one the Continuing Committee's greatest contributions to this game is what BCSWowbagger just pointed out ... fewer and fewer referee cards matter any more.

[Ensign Q]

can you please stop hating on ref cards, why on earth do you want to get rid of them? they are not a problem at all and i think the hate only comes from a time when they were neccessary.

if you dont like them, dont run them. they still fix some minor issues with the game. going second, no mulligan or excessive hands for example, redshirting etc.

btw the imagined re-wording for universal missions is wrong. it was if your opponent seeds more than one universal (not neccessarily copies)

[BCSWowbagger]

btw the imagined re-wording for universal missions is wrong. it was if your opponent seeds more than one universal (not neccessarily copies)

That doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense to me. If I seed Bypass Warzone and Bat'leth Tournament, they both become stealable? Why?

[Ensign Q]

btw the imagined re-wording for universal missions is wrong. it was if your opponent seeds more than one universal (not neccessarily copies)

That doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense to me. If I seed Bypass Warzone and Bat'leth Tournament, they both become stealable? Why?

because of the reasons you mentioned. there is stuff that refers to multiple ❖ missions

[BCSWowbagger]

because of the reasons you mentioned. there is stuff that refers to multiple ❖ missions

Yeah, but it's a bad idea to create universal rules that have weird exceptions or definitions in them simply to provide a "carveout" for certain existing cards. First you figure out what the best, cleanest, clearest rule would be. Then you figure out what changes would have to be made to the card pool to support that rule -- whether that's bans, erratae, or new cards.

Decipher used to frequently do this the wrong way, and it got the game in a lot of trouble.

[Mogor]

I would be fine with that alteration except I would want espionege cards to still be able to impact unviersal and 40 point + missions

[Ensign Q]

a clean and clear rule is: first (or one) ❖ mission you seed is protected.

[Discovery suxs]

I think that right now its currently fine.

Universal missions are easier to use, esp in multiples of the same, there has to be a cost for that and if you feel people are going to mission steal use HQ: Defensive Measures.

You talk like that card is awesome. It has a countdown. What you going to do put 10 in your deck. Seeding it is pointless because you know you won't do a mission first 2 turns.

[DarkSabre]

I think that right now its currently fine.

Universal missions are easier to use, esp in multiples of the same, there has to be a cost for that and if you feel people are going to mission steal use HQ: Defensive Measures.

You talk like that card is awesome. It has a countdown. What you going to do put 10 in your deck. Seeding it is pointless because you know you won't do a mission first 2 turns.

It’s a hidden agenda and you can flip it when you need to.

And it’s pretty apparent if an opponent is going to go and steal your missions. And if they are they usually are going to do it with a way to grab it in one turn which means you need to go and do that mission before the count down is done. If they can do it in one mission attempt you should be able to by then. That’s the logic behind that strategy.

And it’s the price you pay to use missions that easier. It’s why missions 40 and above could be stolen as well.

If I see someone with wormhole negotiations you can be sure I’m counting how many seed cards they have on the table that are Hidden Agenda seeds.


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[Iron Prime]

I think that right now its currently fine.

Universal missions are easier to use, esp in multiples of the same, there has to be a cost for that and if you feel people are going to mission steal use HQ: Defensive Measures.

You talk like that card is awesome.

It has a countdown. What you going to do put 10 in your deck. Seeding it is pointless because you know you won't do a mission first 2 turns.

It's hidden (as mentioned already) and has count down of 3. BUT: Most games only last around seven turns. So unless your opponent is gunning for your mission(s) they won't be there till turn three or so. Then flip it. That's six turns - nearly the whole game - that your mission(s) are protected. I think it's a good answer if you are concerned about theft.

[Iron Prime]

So, question for the group: have Ref problems been fixed enough that we can ban Tribunal of Q and return to traditional Q-the-Referee cycling, with all the deckbuilding choices that entails?

If this gets a lot of answers, I presume mods will split the thread.

I did a thing

[Armus]

I think that right now its currently fine.

Universal missions are easier to use, esp in multiples of the same, there has to be a cost for that and if you feel people are going to mission steal use HQ: Defensive Measures.

You talk like that card is awesome. It has a countdown. What you going to do put 10 in your deck. Seeding it is pointless because you know you won't do a mission first 2 turns.

Not sure I'm following this. It's seedable as a hidden agenda, which means the countdown wouldn't even start until your opponent tries to attempt one of your missions and you're forced to reveal it. And if you've been paying attention to who your opponent has played, you should have a feel for what dilemmas are under there and you have 4 turns to get your stuff together and get there first.

That aside, it's a countdown 4. So in a typical game you'd need 2 of these things. Maybe 3 if stuff gets real crazy. So even if you're super paranoid about getting your missions stolen, it works well enough.

Tl;dr: maybe not awesome per se, but definitely decent enough at what it does as to be serviceable.

[Discovery suxs]

I think that right now its currently fine.

Universal missions are easier to use, esp in multiples of the same, there has to be a cost for that and if you feel people are going to mission steal use HQ: Defensive Measures.

You talk like that card is awesome. It has a countdown. What you going to do put 10 in your deck. Seeding it is pointless because you know you won't do a mission first 2 turns.

It’s a hidden agenda and you can flip it when you need to.

And it’s pretty apparent if an opponent is going to go and steal your missions. And if they are they usually are going to do it with a way to grab it in one turn which means you need to go and do that mission before the count down is done. If they can do it in one mission attempt you should be able to by then. That’s the logic behind that strategy.

And it’s the price you pay to use missions that easier. It’s why missions 40 and above could be stolen as well.

If I see someone with wormhole negotiations you can be sure I’m counting how many seed cards they have on the table that are Hidden Agenda seeds.


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I think I would learn alot playing with people like you. My decks are bigger than normal because I plan for things. I don't use ref cards because it never really comes up in my groups games. If a ref card could of helped me I bet it would be less than 10% of our games.

Anyway the whole reason I posted this topic.

My stone of gol deck has 3 geographic surveys missions, 1 mineral survey, 1 other geology mission and only 1 space mission. So 5 universial missions. The missions can't change unless they were similar requirements. The deck has 14 Vektors in it. She pretty much beats 5 missions. I only need one other skill. Yes I have to go for 140 points. It works in the end. So I guess the hq defensive is a good card for it.

[DarkSabre]

You talk like that card is awesome. It has a countdown. What you going to do put 10 in your deck. Seeding it is pointless because you know you won't do a mission first 2 turns.

It’s a hidden agenda and you can flip it when you need to.

And it’s pretty apparent if an opponent is going to go and steal your missions. And if they are they usually are going to do it with a way to grab it in one turn which means you need to go and do that mission before the count down is done. If they can do it in one mission attempt you should be able to by then. That’s the logic behind that strategy.

And it’s the price you pay to use missions that easier. It’s why missions 40 and above could be stolen as well.

If I see someone with wormhole negotiations you can be sure I’m counting how many seed cards they have on the table that are Hidden Agenda seeds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think I would learn alot playing with people like you. My decks are bigger than normal because I plan for things. I don't use ref cards because it never really comes up in my groups games. If a ref card could of helped me I bet it would be less than 10% of our games.

Anyway the whole reason I posted this topic.

My stone of gol deck has 3 geographic surveys missions, 1 mineral survey, 1 other geology mission and only 1 space mission. So 5 universial missions. The missions can't change unless they were similar requirements. The deck has 14 Vektors in it. She pretty much beats 5 missions. I only need one other skill. Yes I have to go for 140 points. It works in the end. So I guess the hq defensive is a good card for it.

More than happy to play online. Where are you located offline?

I’ll be in Northern VA next weekend and hope to be at Continentals in June [emoji41]


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