[MidnightLich]

but i guess the massive and broken report engines you designed were to get rid of that refcard lol /facepalm

It's clear that you are frustrated, but I'd ask you - and everyone - to avoid taking shots at the people that work on and play this game. We're a small enough community that we don't need harsh words and bad feelings between those of us here. Just some food for thought.

But to address your concern, there is not a massive effort to remove cards - but there has been a small, steady, and active effort to reduce the need for them for years. Design goes out of their way to not make new ones, and the Errata Team has worked hard to eliminate the most offensive strategies over the years. This is an effort that's been going on a long time, but it's not accelerating. This thread in particular represents a discussion about the mechanic and it's place in the game, not an official change of policy.

-crp

[Ensign Q]

yeah its frustration, im sorry.

I know its a hobby for you guys to keep the game fresh and running and even when im mean, i appreciate that.
At the same time, even when you do something for free, its no excuse for mistakes. A lot of players have to live with the consquences of your decisions.
The game has to become more new player friendly/accessible and fair or it will be even more dead in the future an all the hours you put there was in vain.
dont focus on the wrong problems please (while introducing new )

[Hoss-Drone]

Solution: play draft cube.

Come to sioux falls June 8th and find out for yourself that draft cube is 1e the way 1e was meant to be.

[Takket]

so i find it interesting........

leave it alone in the lead with 11 votes but the some-sort-of-"ban" or "no - but we are close" options garnered 18 votes.

[Mogor]

We are close, but I would rather leave Tribunal in for ever, as an option if we ever need to issue new REF cards

[Armus]

To generalize this: as of this posting, "Don't ban" is leading "Ban" by a 2-1 margin. If anyone is drawing any conclusion other than leave stuff alone, then they either aren't reading the results correctly or don't care what the consensus community opinion is.

Probably best to leave things as they are until/ unless a compelling reason to change presents itself.

[BCSWowbagger]

To generalize this: as of this posting, "Don't ban" is leading "Ban" by a 2-1 margin. If anyone is drawing any conclusion other than leave stuff alone, then they either aren't reading the results correctly or don't care what the consensus community opinion is.

Probably best to leave things as they are until/ unless a compelling reason to change presents itself.

To specify the generalization: at this writing, "Ban now" has 1/3rd support, "Ban soon" has almost 1/3rd support, and "Ban later / never" has slightly more than 1/3rd support.

Taking action now is clearly not supported by anything like a community consensus. Like Armus says, there's 2-1 opposition to banning either Tribunal or Civil War right now.

But it should be checked on again soonish, because, once the "Ban soon" people are ready and join in with the "Ban now" people, they'll represent the 2-1 community consensus.

[DarkSabre]

Personally, I think the Ref cards are getting closer to not being needed BUT the problem is that many decks rely on Ref Cards to move their deck along. Defend Homeworld is the biggest culprit for this.

I also want to make sure Dominion doesn't hit me so White is in the deck and Villagers with Torches is always an instant in my Ref pile.

I do think the Ban list needs to be fixed before Ref cards are ever fully fixed.

#VortaClonesDidNothingWrong

[Armus]

Trib is a seedslot itself..

Right. So you never seed DH. In a deck that uses DH, you always seed Trib and then pull along any other Ref stuff you can. Because why wouldn't you? It's ALMOST free!

FTFY.

This is an entirely fair statement. For the last couple of years, when deciding whether or not I wanted to run QTCW/TribQ or not, I asked myself "Do I need a Defend Homeworld download?" If the answer was yes, I ran the Q suite because attempting with 4 was a fair trade to have easy access to Masaka and Containment Field and everything else was ceteris paribus (because aside from QRef, Containment Field, Obelisk, and DH I don't remember the last time any other ref card hit play*).

*The only other consideration is if I'm based at a Homeworld I'll run the ref suite for access to the battle protection that Strategema provides, though I don't remember ever actually having to go get it.

Now in my Borg deck last year, the answer to the DH question was no, because I had all sorts of options for downloading things and didn't need DH. In that case I went with the regular old tent and no Q cards, and aside from shaking my head when one of my opponents played Kivas Fajo - Collector multiple times, I didn't miss the ref suite (I also didn't have a Homeworld and my ship was bigger than theirs).

So here's a thought that might unite the tribes and one I'm willing to consider:

- Leave QTCW and TribQ alone and unbanned

- Errata Defend Homeworld to remove the icon

- Leave the rest of the cards as is.

This actually makes running the ref suite a real deckbuilding choice. With Strategema and Defend Homeworld both doing the same basic thing (deterring battle at Homeworlds), DH is expendable as a card.

Hypothesis: Doing this will lead to an overall decrease in but it won't zero it out. Like all things, it will be a meta consideration, as it should be IMO.

Could that be the middle ground that makes everyone happy (or at least happIER)?

[Iron Prime]

Trib is a seedslot itself..

Right. So you never seed DH. In a deck that uses DH, you always seed Trib and then pull along any other Ref stuff you can. Because why wouldn't you? It's ALMOST free!

FTFY.

This is an entirely fair statement. For the last couple of years, when deciding whether or not I wanted to run QTCW/TribQ or not, I asked myself "Do I need a Defend Homeworld download?" If the answer was yes, I ran the Q suite because attempting with 4 was a fair trade to have easy access to Masaka and Containment Field and everything else was ceteris paribus (because aside from QRef, Containment Field, Obelisk, and DH I don't remember the last time any other ref card hit play*).

*The only other consideration is if I'm based at a Homeworld I'll run the ref suite for access to the battle protection that Strategema provides, though I don't remember ever actually having to go get it.

Now in my Borg deck last year, the answer to the DH question was no, because I had all sorts of options for downloading things and didn't need DH. In that case I went with the regular old tent and no Q cards, and aside from shaking my head when one of my opponents played Kivas Fajo - Collector multiple times, I didn't miss the ref suite (I also didn't have a Homeworld and my ship was bigger than theirs).

So here's a thought that might unite the tribes and one I'm willing to consider:

- Leave QTCW and TribQ alone and unbanned

- Errata Defend Homeworld to remove the icon

- Leave the rest of the cards as is.

This actually makes running the ref suite a real deckbuilding choice. With Strategema and Defend Homeworld both doing the same basic thing (deterring battle at Homeworlds), DH is expendable as a card.

Hypothesis: Doing this will lead to an overall decrease in but it won't zero it out. Like all things, it will be a meta consideration, as it should be IMO.

Could that be the middle ground that makes everyone happy (or at least happIER)?

I like this train of thought. I hope that "The Powers That Be" will at least take a look at it.

#VortaClonesDidNothingWrong

[BCSWowbagger]

^ First blush, I like that quite a bit.

[DarkSabre]

I like it