[DarkSabre]

A year ago, I was playing Hero of the Empire, and Austin was playing Dominion Capture.

Austin invaded my Deep Space K-7 and captured Kirk. Using the default 1E rule of “if we can’t figure out what the real rule is, then whatever is awesome is the rule”, we figured that my Hero Of The Empire doesn’t prevent my opponent from moving Kirk away as a captive, so the Dominion took him into protective custody to escape from the Tribble Bomb.

But what’s the real rule?
1. Does Hero of the Empire prevent Captain Kirk from being moved by my opponent if he’s a captive?
2. What about if he’s been taken over by a Ceti Eel or had his Pain Released?
3. What about the Borg? He no longer counts as “Captain Kirk” once he’s been assimilated, but does Hero of the Empire he be abducted prior to assimilation (by Assimilate Counterpart or the Talon Drone?)
4. Can Tribble Bomb even target a captive anyway?

I think the key thing that happened was that I used Captured! and since it allowed me to capture Kirk we argued that I should be able to move a captive because him being captured.

It was a zany situation and we did differ to the TD at the time for it

[Armus]

A year ago, I was playing Hero of the Empire, and Austin was playing Dominion Capture.

Austin invaded my Deep Space K-7 and captured Kirk. Using the default 1E rule of “if we can’t figure out what the real rule is, then whatever is awesome is the rule”, we figured that my Hero Of The Empire doesn’t prevent my opponent from moving Kirk away as a captive, so the Dominion took him into protective custody to escape from the Tribble Bomb.

But what’s the real rule?
1. Does Hero of the Empire prevent Captain Kirk from being moved by my opponent if he’s a captive?
2. What about if he’s been taken over by a Ceti Eel or had his Pain Released?
3. What about the Borg? He no longer counts as “Captain Kirk” once he’s been assimilated, but does Hero of the Empire he be abducted prior to assimilation (by Assimilate Counterpart or the Talon Drone?)
4. Can Tribble Bomb even target a captive anyway?

I think the key thing that happened was that I used Captured! and since it allowed me to capture Kirk we argued that I should be able to move a captive because him being captured.

It was a zany situation and we did differ to the TD at the time for it

Did you? I don't recall being asked to make a ruling. I just remember Benhosp telling me about it afterwards.

[DarkSabre]

A year ago, I was playing Hero of the Empire, and Austin was playing Dominion Capture.

Austin invaded my Deep Space K-7 and captured Kirk. Using the default 1E rule of “if we can’t figure out what the real rule is, then whatever is awesome is the rule”, we figured that my Hero Of The Empire doesn’t prevent my opponent from moving Kirk away as a captive, so the Dominion took him into protective custody to escape from the Tribble Bomb.

But what’s the real rule?
1. Does Hero of the Empire prevent Captain Kirk from being moved by my opponent if he’s a captive?
2. What about if he’s been taken over by a Ceti Eel or had his Pain Released?
3. What about the Borg? He no longer counts as “Captain Kirk” once he’s been assimilated, but does Hero of the Empire he be abducted prior to assimilation (by Assimilate Counterpart or the Talon Drone?)
4. Can Tribble Bomb even target a captive anyway?

I think the key thing that happened was that I used Captured! and since it allowed me to capture Kirk we argued that I should be able to move a captive because him being captured.

It was a zany situation and we did differ to the TD at the time for it

Did you? I don't recall being asked to make a ruling. I just remember Benhosp telling me about it afterwards.

Was it at that tournament? I do recall saying out loud and asking around what we should do. I don’t recall anyone objecting to it because it kinda made sense.

Kirk can be targeted by cards so when he is captured it should override other text on the card.

It’s little things like this that make me love 1E. The zaniness of how cards interact


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[AllenGould]

Kirk can be targeted by cards so when he is captured it should override other text on the card.

Why would capturing override "may not be moved" text? Capturing doesn't care about movement.

[bhosp]

I think the key thing that happened was that I used Captured! and since it allowed me to capture Kirk we argued that I should be able to move a captive because him being captured.

It was a zany situation and we did differ to the TD at the time for it

Did you? I don't recall being asked to make a ruling. I just remember Benhosp telling me about it afterwards.

Was it at that tournament? I do recall saying out loud and asking around what we should do. I don’t recall anyone objecting to it because it kinda made sense.

Kirk can be targeted by cards so when he is captured it should override other text on the card.

It’s little things like this that make me love 1E. The zaniness of how cards interact


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We did ask you, but you started making the 1E face so I conceded the point.

[DarkSabre]

Kirk can be targeted by cards so when he is captured it should override other text on the card.

Why would capturing override "may not be moved" text? Capturing doesn't care about movement.

Because the capturing rules specifically say that the captured card is relocated to your away team present. Relocating is a form of a movement. Glossary page 14 for those who want to look at the capturing rules.

Basically the logic was that if Kirk can be captured then he has to be allowed to be moved and since he can be moved (and is disabled) as my captive then I can choose to take him to the GQ and make smack talk with him.

Unless we want to rule that Captain Kirk can’t be captured since he cannot be moved when captured.

Hey Jon if you aren’t too busy at Continentals drop on in.


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[bhosp]

Kirk can be targeted by cards so when he is captured it should override other text on the card.

Why would capturing override "may not be moved" text? Capturing doesn't care about movement.

Capturing doesn’t care about movement, so why would a card that says Captain Kirk can’t move have anything to do with what happens when he gets captured?

“Moving” is something Captain Kirk does, but “getting captured and dragged away” is something being done to Captain Kirk.

Or at least that sounded correct enough to me at the time that I was unwilling to be a grown-ass man arguing the point in a basement.

[Armus]

Ok that's an entirely plausible description of events.

If that's the case I got that wrong. Can't be moved card text trumps general rules. I apologize for the error.

I blame Austin for using esoteric cards at tournaments that we run and puppet mastering us to rule against each other to his benefit.

Hmmm... that explains your messing up the Thine Own Self ruling at Manassters.

We're on to you Austin!

[AllenGould]

Unless we want to rule that Captain Kirk can’t be captured since he cannot be moved when captured.

Except that the relocation is marked "if possible". So you can definitely capture someone without moving them.

[bhosp]

Ok that's an entirely plausible description of events.

If that's the case I got that wrong. Can't be moved card text trumps general rules. I apologize for the error.

I blame Austin for using esoteric cards at tournaments that we run and puppet mastering us to rule against each other to his benefit.

Hmmm... that explains your messing up the Thine Own Self ruling at Manassters.

We're on to you Austin!

I’m actually still not convinced that my (non capturing-related) cards have anything to do with what my opponent is allowed to do with his captives.

[DarkSabre]

Unless we want to rule that Captain Kirk can’t be captured since he cannot be moved when captured.

Except that the relocation is marked "if possible". So you can definitely capture someone without moving them.

The If Possible is referring to a ship or an away team present. Otherwise you go to the 2nd part of that rule.

Here is the complete portion of the glossary:

Upon capture, captives are immediately
relocated to one of your crews or Away Teams at that location, if possible (to the specific crew or Away Team making the capture, if any, such as when using Ilon Tandro or Captured).
• Otherwise, the capturing card remains in play and serves as a temporary “trap” to hold the captives on your side of that location until your personnel can arrive to take them into custody. (If there is a planet at that location, the trap is on the planet.)
• Your ship with transporters (in space) or your Away Team (on a planet) can subsequently take custody of the captives if present with the trap, then discard the trap card.

Seems evident to me that yes, if a personnel can be captured, then I can go ahead and drag him away because he is basically just like an equipment card. He is dragged to where I want and he is not moving voluntarily. He is an accessory to the might of my Jem'Hadar and the Glory of the Founders.

Disabled Glossary text:

Disabled personnel may not be used in any way (including game text, attributes, icons,lore, skills, traits such as gender, species, or matching commander status, etc.), may not enable game text requiring that personnel to be in play, and may not perform any actions. They may be beamed or moved in the same way as Equipment cards (but are not treated as equipment in any other way).

Seems like since Hero of the Empire is enabled by Captain Kirk then when he is disabled he cannot enable that card and therefore the movement aspect of that card (that he cannot be moved) is ignored now until he becomes non-disabled.

[DarkSabre]

Ok that's an entirely plausible description of events.

If that's the case I got that wrong. Can't be moved card text trumps general rules. I apologize for the error.

I blame Austin for using esoteric cards at tournaments that we run and puppet mastering us to rule against each other to his benefit.

Hmmm... that explains your messing up the Thine Own Self ruling at Manassters.

We're on to you Austin!

That card needs to be errata'd along with brain drain to work in the post-PAQ era properly like intended.

[Armus]

Ok that's an entirely plausible description of events.

If that's the case I got that wrong. Can't be moved card text trumps general rules. I apologize for the error.

I blame Austin for using esoteric cards at tournaments that we run and puppet mastering us to rule against each other to his benefit.

Hmmm... that explains your messing up the Thine Own Self ruling at Manassters.

We're on to you Austin!

I’m actually still not convinced that my (non capturing-related) cards have anything to do with what my opponent is allowed to do with his captives.

If HotE said Kirk "cannot move" I would agree with you - a few days ago I actually was halfway through a lengthy post regarding the difference between "cannot move" and "cannot BE moved" before actually going and reading the card.

However since Captured turns the target into an escorted captive and since escorted captives are moved like equipment cards, there's a strong case to be made that the specific card text saying Kirk "can't be moved" overrides the normal escorted captive rule.

[BCSWowbagger]

Seems like since Hero of the Empire is enabled by Captain Kirk then when he is disabled he cannot enable that card and therefore the movement aspect of that card (that he cannot be moved) is ignored now until he becomes non-disabled.

He's not enabling Hero of the Empire; he's being targeted by it (which is imposing a restriction on Kirk, not using Kirk to generate some spinoff benefit a la Duck Blind, which is what that text is really referring to).

It's the difference between pulling the trigger on a phaser and being shot by a phaser. (A "conceptually unconscious" person can do the latter, but not the former.)

(I'm hoping to avoid having to actually come up with a convincing answer on the Golden Rule issue at the heart of this. But, even there, cards > rules is how those usually go.)

[JeBuS]

Unless we want to rule that Captain Kirk can’t be captured since he cannot be moved when captured.

Except that the relocation is marked "if possible". So you can definitely capture someone without moving them.

The If Possible is referring to a ship or an away team present. Otherwise you go to the 2nd part of that rule.

Here is the complete portion of the glossary:

Upon capture, captives are immediately
relocated to one of your crews or Away Teams at that location, if possible (to the specific crew or Away Team making the capture, if any, such as when using Ilon Tandro or Captured).
• Otherwise, the capturing card remains in play and serves as a temporary “trap” to hold the captives on your side of that location until your personnel can arrive to take them into custody. (If there is a planet at that location, the trap is on the planet.)
• Your ship with transporters (in space) or your Away Team (on a planet) can subsequently take custody of the captives if present with the trap, then discard the trap card.

Seems evident to me that yes, if a personnel can be captured, then I can go ahead and drag him away because he is basically just like an equipment card. He is dragged to where I want and he is not moving voluntarily. He is an accessory to the might of my Jem'Hadar and the Glory of the Founders.

Disabled Glossary text:

Disabled personnel may not be used in any way (including game text, attributes, icons,lore, skills, traits such as gender, species, or matching commander status, etc.), may not enable game text requiring that personnel to be in play, and may not perform any actions. They may be beamed or moved in the same way as Equipment cards (but are not treated as equipment in any other way).

Seems like since Hero of the Empire is enabled by Captain Kirk then when he is disabled he cannot enable that card and therefore the movement aspect of that card (that he cannot be moved) is ignored now until he becomes non-disabled.

That's not how the grammar works. Broken down, the sentence structure and logic flow is thus:
Is captured?
-No: Doesn't apply.
-Yes: Is possible to relocate?
--No: Don't.
--Yes: Is capturing crew or away team present?
---No: Stay put.
---Yes: Relocate to them.

The portion that says "..., if possible" is a general clause. The following portion that says "(to the specific crew or Away Team making the capture, if any, such as when using Ilon Tandro or Captured)" is a specific clause only triggered if the general clause "is possible".

If the parentheses were not there, it would change the "if possible". Without the parentheses, the entire sentence would change. It would, in fact, be exactly how you argue.
Is captured?
-No: Doesn't apply.
-Yes: Is capturing crew or away team present?
--No: Relocate to any of opponent's crews or away teams present.
--Yes: Relocate to them.