[Discovery suxs]

I'm personally tired of mega gaming players getting cards banned forever. The erratas take forever to get them off the banned list. Most of the time the erratas are not even close to the same power level. Now after banning memory wipe and more importantly Khan's EEL too. I'm doing this poll because only doing erratas or banning cards is way too limiting for this game.

So please fill out my poll. You can change your choice btw.

Heres a small example of the restricted list.

OTF restricted list

Artifacts on restricted list must be earned and can't be played until your turn 4. The quality you can have in any decks is by the card names. The restricted list is help to level the game. While still letting you enjoy the cards in the game. The restricted list is not a replacement for banned list. It is supplement to the banned list.


List

Memory wipe (limit 3)
Ceti Eel (limit 4)
Senior Staff Meeting (limit 1)
Rogue Borg Mercenaries (limit 4)
Tox Uthat (limit 1)
Time Travel Pod (limit 1)
Sherlock Holmes (limit 1) (must have holoprogram in play)

[sexecutioner]

af072e8dd5068945ec4b19780c34497376bb0b27d5955100c15d70938bbdf154.jpg (55.34 KiB) Viewed 812 times

[Orbin]

I don't think an arbitrary limit on some cards is a good way to go. Pre-OTF there was a format that introduced a copy limit for all cards (I think the limit was 4). There are some things that don't work under a copy limit, and the added complexity of having to remember a list of card with varying copy limits (and trying to enforce it) seem too much.

- James M

[SudenKapala]

In the OP, you mean "quantity" where you wrote "quality".

Orbin seems to raise some logical and genuine concerns that would need to be addressed.

But because I, theoretically, would rather have an additional restricted list than a ban list (that grows faster than errata can take cards off it), I voted "yes".

[Discovery suxs]

If I lose this poll then I'm probably stopping otf format all together. My group plays for fun not mega gaming like some tournament players. I'm tired of being punished for bad apples. I used to have a friend that would break every game system. It was not fun playing with him. He always took advantage of every flaw in the games. If somehow he lost he would blow up and go home.

[MidnightLich]

I'm against a restricted list, especially a non-standard one such as this. I believe the general understanding of a restricted list is a list of cards that limit players to a single copy. The problem I see with that is it becomes less about skill in deck building and game play, and more about who is lucky enough to get their copy first.

-crp

[Orbin]

If I lose this poll then I'm probably stopping otf format all together. My group plays for fun not mega gaming like some tournament players. I'm tired of being punished for bad apples. I used to have a friend that would break every game system. It was not fun playing with him. He always took advantage of every flaw in the games. If somehow he lost he would blow up and go home.

So what is it about OTF that makes you feel that way? Is it specific cards on the Ban List, or is it some of the rule changes that OTF has compared to Open?

- James M

[nobthehobbit]

I'm against a restricted list, especially a non-standard one such as this. I believe the general understanding of a restricted list is a list of cards that limit players to a single copy. The problem I see with that is it becomes less about skill in deck building and game play, and more about who is lucky enough to get their copy first.

-crp

Exactly.

[SudenKapala]

... especially a non-standard one such as this. I believe the general understanding of a restricted list is a list of cards that limit players to a single copy ... who is lucky enough to get their copy first.

More valid concerns. In practice, it may not be doable. But for discussion reasons, and because I theoretically do agree with the premise, I'll let my vote stand.

I'm glad you didn't say this, Disco ( ):

If I lose this poll then I [...] blow up and go home.

(Truncated for comic effect. )

stopping otf format all together.

For various reasons, I've never started using it with my group. And we at least seem to share your reasons for possibly abandoning it -- no ban list desired, good friends and small egos make for fun play.

So what is it about OTF that makes you feel that way? Is it specific cards on the Ban List, or is it some of the rule changes that OTF has compared to Open?

Additionally, indeed (if you're interested in my answer, too), we dislike the various rules changes and the heavy errata to some cards. (We use the original, final Decipher errata.) And there's our nostalgia for the original, vintage state of the game.
But yes; we're very conscious of the fact that this form of the game we play is, potentially, a recipe for disaster.

I used to have a friend that would break every game system. It was not fun playing with him. He always took advantage of every flaw in the games. If somehow he lost he would blow up and go home.

Sounds like someone I once knew. Good person, but terrible at losing a game. But it seems you have nicer and/or better friends now.

[Armus]

If I lose this poll then I'm probably stopping otf format all together. My group plays for fun not mega gaming like some tournament players. I'm tired of being punished for bad apples. I used to have a friend that would break every game system. It was not fun playing with him. He always took advantage of every flaw in the games. If somehow he lost he would blow up and go home.

There's nothing that prevents you and your friends from doing whatever house/ kitchen table rules you want.

If you're playing fun games, do what you gotta do to make them fun. If that means you homebrew the DOKTF* list for you and your friends, great!

I think there's a strong consensus that, despite whatever minor flaws it has, OTF has been exponentially good for reviving 1e as a playable game, and while more tweaks and changes will no doubt come along, doing any kind of significant overhaul is not really anyone's desire.



*DOKTF = Discoverysux's OTFsux Kitchen Table Format

[sexecutioner]

If you lose this poll, I promise I'll break into Charlies house, hack his computer, denounce OTF, announce Aberdeen Anarchy as the supreme format and unban Raise the Stakes...

@Charlie: I know where you live now, so i'll bring our feud to YOU!

[AllenGould]

Most of the time the erratas are not even close to the same power level.

A card gets on the ban list by being too powerful (in some form or another). If it stayed the same power level, that isn't fixing anything.

So please fill out my poll. You can change your choice btw.

You can even vote for both yes and no!

OTF restricted list

(snip)

Charlie already covered the point of player's default assumption being "restricted = 1", but I would suggest that we could change that number... but not on a per-card basis as you have. Keeping track of which card can have which number of copies (where that number could be anywhere from 1 to 4) is a lot of mental overhead to throw on players. And more cynically, you're gonna get a lot of ongoing arguments about whether card X should be a 1-of vs. 2-of vs. 3-ofs.

As for OTF, my opinion is that the T stands for Tournament for a reason - it's a set of rules for the folks who are Playing To Win. (And a standardized set of rules for folks who travel.) But for the same reason your backyard flag football game doesn't run on NFL rules, if your group of friends have a way to play that works for you, then you do you!

[Se7enofMine]

I don't see how this poll has any relevance on your gaming, unless you plan on playing sanctioned tourneys against the people who voted.

Play whatever house rules you want. If you want your card base to be 12 cards, go for it. If you want to use all the cards from the current ban list? Go for it.

Your drawing lines in the sand that have reason to be drawn.

[SudenKapala]

I don't see how this poll has any relevance on your gaming [...] Your drawing lines in the sand that have {no?} reason to be drawn.

If I understand you {correctly}, then technically, you do have a valid point. Disco seemingly wants to change something that doesn't need to have bearing on his games.
But, less technically, I think -- from other topics -- that he also (or perhaps, 'actually', or 'at least') wants to discuss these kind of things.

(Correct me if wrong please, Disco. I don't presume to speak for you. But I extrapolate from your earlier thoughts.)

As for me, I think that these kinds of polls and/or discussions are interesting in their own right. I learn a lot from them by reading, agreeing, reading the comments of others, and revising my initial opinions -- or strengthening them.

So, please, everyone -- keep talking about your ideas. Even if they're bad ones, people -- if only the OP -- will still walk away with a better understanding of all the options and aspects available.

Aside from that -- the very fabric, the history, of the game undoubtedly will raise these kinds of questions in
Every.
New.
Player.
that joins the fray. And some returning ones, too. I felt the same confusion, and went throgh the same process of, slowly, putting together the jigsaw that is post-Decipher 1e. The result, as I understand, is a beautiful OTF picture -- but it remains a jigsaw. So, stand ready to have this discussion or answer these questions periodically. Unless, perhaps, a decent manual or history is written down, and presented in a central point of access (which can be linked to if needed), in which these things are clearly explained:
- the various current and historic 1e formats (incl. the reasons for their having, and/or not having things like ban and restricted lists);
- the reasons for OTF, and why it is currently, by consensus, the best available version of the still-growing, living game;
- the card pools and how they relate to the formats.

Questions, ideas and confusion about these topics keep -- naturally -- resurfacing with new or returning players. It's inherent to how this game has evolved. Don't blame the fresh minds. Don't blame the game or the developrs, either. But live with it, and/or deal with it.

(I've actually been thinking, gathering intel, and making notes for an article on this matter from even before Jadzia posted her question about how to deal with this better -- which in itself is a signal that the brass is aware of the issue that I describe. But since my current article idea has not yet been reacted on -- and life got in the way -- I've put it on hold.)

[Latok]

Allen pretty much covered it, it's Official Tournament Format it's not catering to friendly kitchen table games where you play Rogue Borg Mercenaries because ha fun they were in Star Trek. It's for Tournaments where Rogue Borg Mercenaries is banned because otherwise each turn you have to decide between playing cards OR moving personnel and/or attempting missions. Don't use the format if you don't play ultra competitively but OTF helps keep tournaments that can be ultra-competitive but hopefully not quite broken.

If I lose this poll then I'm probably stopping otf format all together. My group plays for fun not mega gaming like some tournament players. I'm tired of being punished for bad apples. I used to have a friend that would break every game system. It was not fun playing with him. He always took advantage of every flaw in the games. If somehow he lost he would blow up and go home.

Playing to win doesn't make people 'bad apples' if you don't want to play competitively and instead want to play with all of the cards then just play Open, no one is stopping you.