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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#478273
Since homestead overrules otf rule. Honestly the 1 personnel download limit is what hurts the nors most of all.

Every nor deck I played you have to download at least 3 personnel just to get rolling in the game. If you compare that to non nor decks. You just started rolling and there going at full strength. Especially a tos and 22nd century decks.

So I think making a incident letting nors download 2 personnel only from sites and only if reshape the quadrant is play would help nors alot.

So you only gain the extra personnel from your sites only. So it would not be game breaking that way.

You still only have a max of 2 period from anywhere. So you can't download 2 from sites then 1 from defend homeworld. It is either 1 from defend homeworld or 2 from your sites.

You need reshape the quadrant in play so only ds9 can use it.

What you think?
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Second Edition Rules Master
By Latok
 - Second Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#478295
So is this card allowing you to get two Site downloads ignoring the in place of a normal card play text that they all use?
If so then it's definitely way, way too good and if not then the card does literally nothing because your limited to one Site download a turn not only by the OTF rule but by having only one card play.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#478299
Latok wrote:So is this card allowing you to get two Site downloads ignoring the in place of a normal card play text that they all use?
If so then it's definitely way, way too good and if not then the card does literally nothing because your limited to one Site download a turn not only by the OTF rule but by having only one card play.
I think a card that said something like "When you download a [1E-DS9] personnel using text on a site of a Nor you control, you may download a second [1E-DS9] to a site they can report to as part of the same action" or somesuch.

This costs you both your normal card play and your personnel download for the turn but gets you two choice Prime, allowing [1E-DS9] to shine at what they do (dial-a-skill personnel).

If anything I'm not sure this makes them fast enough to keep up with other draw/play speed options, and maybe on the other hand it needs a throttle of its own ("you may only play one personal for free each turn"?) so it doesn't become more NO2 for [1E-DS9] free report salad decks (yes, those are a thing too).

It's an interesting idea that would probably take a bit of work to get right, but I definitely see potential.

Nice suggestion, DS. :thumbsup:
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#478300
KazonPADD wrote:Nor fixes are coming.
That sounds ominous.

I know there's people in the community who think Nors are big, dumb, and overcomplicated, but I doubt they're the main reason people aren't playing [1E-DS9] decks, if it's even on the list at all.

I guess I should reserve judgment until I actually see said "fix" and hopefully whatever comes out won't totally neuter Nors - used correctly they are a good mechanic to have in the game.
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#478302
Armus wrote:
Latok wrote:So is this card allowing you to get two Site downloads ignoring the in place of a normal card play text that they all use?
If so then it's definitely way, way too good and if not then the card does literally nothing because your limited to one Site download a turn not only by the OTF rule but by having only one card play.
I think a card that said something like "When you download a [1E-DS9] personnel using text on a site of a Nor you control, you may download a second [1E-DS9] to a site they can report to as part of the same action" or somesuch.

This costs you both your normal card play and your personnel download for the turn but gets you two choice Prime, allowing [1E-DS9] to shine at what they do (dial-a-skill personnel).

If anything I'm not sure this makes them fast enough to keep up with other draw/play speed options, and maybe on the other hand it needs a throttle of its own ("you may only play one personal for free each turn"?) so it doesn't become more NO2 for [1E-DS9] free report salad decks (yes, those are a thing too).

It's an interesting idea that would probably take a bit of work to get right, but I definitely see potential.

Nice suggestion, DS. :thumbsup:

I like your idea to it too. I thought of it basically after having 10 decks with nors in them. It may not help alot but it would definitely bring them closer to final frontier speed level. If you can download morn and mirror odo and process ore in the same turn. You will have your nor able to do something on turn 2 besides turn 3 for example.
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Second Edition Rules Master
By Latok
 - Second Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#478303
Armus wrote:
Latok wrote:So is this card allowing you to get two Site downloads ignoring the in place of a normal card play text that they all use?
If so then it's definitely way, way too good and if not then the card does literally nothing because your limited to one Site download a turn not only by the OTF rule but by having only one card play.
I think a card that said something like "When you download a [1E-DS9] personnel using text on a site of a Nor you control, you may download a second [1E-DS9] to a site they can report to as part of the same action" or somesuch.

This costs you both your normal card play and your personnel download for the turn but gets you two choice Prime, allowing [1E-DS9] to shine at what they do (dial-a-skill personnel).

If anything I'm not sure this makes them fast enough to keep up with other draw/play speed options, and maybe on the other hand it needs a throttle of its own ("you may only play one personal for free each turn"?) so it doesn't become more NO2 for [1E-DS9] free report salad decks (yes, those are a thing too).

It's an interesting idea that would probably take a bit of work to get right, but I definitely see potential.

Nice suggestion, DS. :thumbsup:
I think even if you only have one free play, BRC or one of the CC Incidents AND 2 downloads of any personnel in the deck a turn there's no way the deck isn't too good. You've got easy free ship plays so you're playing the 3 people a turn that's the standard but yours is better than any other play engine that exists atm.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#478309
Armus wrote:
KazonPADD wrote:Nor fixes are coming.
That sounds ominous.

I know there's people in the community who think Nors are big, dumb, and overcomplicated, but I doubt they're the main reason people aren't playing [1E-DS9] decks, if it's even on the list at all.

I guess I should reserve judgment until I actually see said "fix" and hopefully whatever comes out won't totally neuter Nors - used correctly they are a good mechanic to have in the game.
Definitely Nor Love
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#478311
Latok wrote:
Armus wrote:
Latok wrote:So is this card allowing you to get two Site downloads ignoring the in place of a normal card play text that they all use?
If so then it's definitely way, way too good and if not then the card does literally nothing because your limited to one Site download a turn not only by the OTF rule but by having only one card play.
I think a card that said something like "When you download a [1E-DS9] personnel using text on a site of a Nor you control, you may download a second [1E-DS9] to a site they can report to as part of the same action" or somesuch.

This costs you both your normal card play and your personnel download for the turn but gets you two choice Prime, allowing [1E-DS9] to shine at what they do (dial-a-skill personnel).

If anything I'm not sure this makes them fast enough to keep up with other draw/play speed options, and maybe on the other hand it needs a throttle of its own ("you may only play one personal for free each turn"?) so it doesn't become more NO2 for [1E-DS9] free report salad decks (yes, those are a thing too).

It's an interesting idea that would probably take a bit of work to get right, but I definitely see potential.

Nice suggestion, DS. :thumbsup:
I think even if you only have one free play, BRC or one of the CC Incidents AND 2 downloads of any personnel in the deck a turn there's no way the deck isn't too good. You've got easy free ship plays so you're playing the 3 people a turn that's the standard but yours is better than any other play engine that exists atm.
I'm not convinced it would be strictly better if done correctly. Maybe make the tag along personnel has to be universal, so while you couldn't get Benjamin Sisko and Jadzia Dax, in the same turn, you could get, say, Sisko and Paxton Reese.
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#478314
KazonPADD wrote:
Armus wrote:
KazonPADD wrote:Nor fixes are coming.
That sounds ominous.

I know there's people in the community who think Nors are big, dumb, and overcomplicated, but I doubt they're the main reason people aren't playing [1E-DS9] decks, if it's even on the list at all.

I guess I should reserve judgment until I actually see said "fix" and hopefully whatever comes out won't totally neuter Nors - used correctly they are a good mechanic to have in the game.
Definitely Nor Love

:P :)

Hopefully some new nors too besides empok nor for everything else. :wink:
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By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#478341
Discovery suxs wrote:Hopefully some new nors too besides empok nor for everything else. :wink:
I'm not sure there is much precedent in the series for more nors? But maybe some new persona's for DS9 and Terok Nor?
Personally - and I realize what I'm asking of Art - I would love virtual cards for Empok Nor in all the correct "flavors". If I plan to commandeer and command Empok Nor as Klingons I would love to flip it from black neutral to red Klingon. No new game text or playtesting required. :twocents:
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#478345
Iron Prime wrote:
Discovery suxs wrote:Hopefully some new nors too besides empok nor for everything else. :wink:
I'm not sure there is much precedent in the series for more nors? But maybe some new persona's for DS9 and Terok Nor?
Personally - and I realize what I'm asking of Art - I would love virtual cards for Empok Nor in all the correct "flavors". If I plan to commandeer and command Empok Nor as Klingons I would love to flip it from black neutral to red Klingon. No new game text or playtesting required. :twocents:
If Sites are reworked to be applicable to all Outposts or Stations, then you don't need to make more Nors. And you make the rules and gameplay more consistent.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#478347
Armus wrote:
KazonPADD wrote:Nor fixes are coming.
That sounds ominous.
How about a vague but hopefully reassuring update from Project Babylon, which has been hard at work for months in complete silence?

Project Babylon looked at every option to fix the various issues with Nors. None of the ominous ones survived the preliminary analysis stage.

Babylon has identified 16 key issues with Nors as currently designed. 10 are issues of rule complexity. 5 are more design/strategic.

The last issue is a meta-issue: Nors are already really complex. Thus, any solutions we create could create even more complexity on top of that by sheer weight of gametext. Since our goal is to reduce barriers-of-entry to DS9 players, we need to be very careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot.

There are currently three Nor-based cards in Project G'Kar, built with the cooperation of Project Babylon. Between them, those cards address 3 of the strategic issues plus 1 of the rules issues.

Babylon is currently working on a package of other changes (mostly rule changes plus minor conforming errata) that are expected to address 6-8 of the remaining rules issues and both of the 2 remaining strategic issues. We're also looking at a couple of the strategic issues G'Kar addressed and asking ourselves whether we need to do anything further to solve them.

The "meta-issue" of Nors' enormous complexity has a couple of possible solutions. I think that the G'Kar/Babylon package will solve it in one way, and I'm pretty pleased about it. But we are also exploring a path that would give players an even simpler option -- emphasis on option.

It is unclear at this time what the release schedule for all this will look like. Possibly G'Kar will release its Nor stuff, and then Babylon will follow up later. Possibly Babylon will be accelerated to get at least its initial package out simultaneous with G'Kar. Possibly the Nor cards in G'Kar will be pulled out and released with Babylon (as VPs?). A lot depends on what the rest of the 1E Department (and Playtesting) thinks when Babylon completes its official work product, which is a comprehensive report on Nors.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#478350
Just tell me Nors are getting split into their own facility type and I'll be a happy camper.

I suspect most of a page of the Glossary is variations of the phrase "(except Nors)". :shifty:
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