[Discovery suxs]

I think the Classic Movie Era could use some boost.

Vidiians, too.

Liking an affiliation or not shouldnt be a factor here. We already have a lot of cards - the goal must be to make as many cards viable as possible.

I agree about the movies. We know next block is movies too.

Search for spock, insurrection, and generations are most complete. I would love to see cc fill in the holes with classifications in with every movie. I wanted to make a pure generations deck. Sadly no medical at all. I don't want to spam equipment in my deck for a classification in my deck.

[Spectre9]

Vidiians are a goo faced side plot species. I don't get the love.

Unless it's just the simple fact that they are the weakest affiliation by virtue of them having no story to build around except organ harvesting and not much extra personnel to build on.

There's also the whole delta quadrant thing. Delta quadrant is already awkward as it is. It makes little sense to build onto it before design can visit Voyager property logo in a big way.

Looking at Vidiian cards the way Decipher designed them is for Voyager block play not to be the most competitive thing in the open format.

I think the question as to if they "need" a booster set is moot because they simply don't deserve to be a tier 1 affiliation.

[Discovery suxs]

Vidiians are a goo faced side plot species. I don't get the love.

Unless it's just the simple fact that they are the weakest affiliation by virtue of them having no story to build around except organ harvesting and not much extra personnel to build on.

There's also the whole delta quadrant thing. Delta quadrant is already awkward as it is. It makes little sense to build onto it before design can visit Voyager property logo in a big way.

Looking at Vidiian cards the way Decipher designed them is for Voyager block play not to be the most competitive thing in the open format.

I think the question as to if they "need" a booster set is moot because they simply don't deserve to be a tier 1 affiliation.

I agree

Delta is harder than it should be honesty. Delta is a true example 1e cares more about flavor than gameplay.

I tried the delta Klingons. When home away from home is the only thing. It sucks honestly. When you combine it with alpha you are having to travel back and forth just for those Klingons.

Voyager romulans are just personnel honestly. I rather seen those slots go to some other personnel. We already have enough pointless personnel that never gets played in the current game.

Voyager ferengi are the same as romulans

Kazon can at least manage 2 freeplay engines.

Hirogen have alot of tricks.

I gave up on voyager federation. If you don't do the time location and shuttlecraft incident. They don't have anything else but the crappy home away from home. Which you have to seed for federation. I just used lewis Zimmerman with the holograms instead. Since I can rods Zimmerman first turn.

I tried borg but that is just because I don't want to bookkeep everything is why I don't like borg.

Look at everything mirror and gamma have honestly.
Delta is like the bastard step child 1e keeps in the basement compare to the other quadrants.

[Slayer07]

I agree

Delta is harder than it should be honesty. Delta is a true example 1e cares more about flavor than gameplay.

I tried the delta Klingons. When home away from home is the only thing. It sucks honestly. When you combine it with alpha you are having to travel back and forth just for those Klingons.

Voyager romulans are just personnel honestly. I rather seen those slots go to some other personnel. We already have enough pointless personnel that never gets played in the current game.

Voyager ferengi are the same as romulans

Kazon can at least manage 2 freeplay engines.

Hirogen have alot of tricks.

I gave up on voyager federation. If you don't do the time location and shuttlecraft incident. They don't have anything else but the crappy home away from home. Which you have to seed for federation. I just used lewis Zimmerman with the holograms instead. Since I can rods Zimmerman first turn.

I tried borg but that is just because I don't want to bookkeep everything is why I don't like borg.

Look at everything mirror and gamma have honestly.
Delta is like the bastard step child 1e keeps in the basement compare to the other quadrants.

There is one thing to remember here as far as Voyager logo Ferengi and Romulans. They are not, and were never meant to be, personnel. When these cards released quadrant divisions were obviously a thing but the logo property stuff was CC introduced. In that regard their usability was not destroyed by Decipher and this was a way to give other tools to affiliations that normally wouldn't get tools because of the theme of the expansion but by the insistence that affiliations be subdivided by property logo.

I do think though there should be a voyager block to go with the other blocks, and it would be nice to have ways to report those cards easier to non locations but that one I doubt will happen.

[Armus]

Vidiians are a goo faced side plot species. I don't get the love.

Unless it's just the simple fact that they are the weakest affiliation by virtue of them having no story to build around except organ harvesting and not much extra personnel to build on.

There's also the whole delta quadrant thing. Delta quadrant is already awkward as it is. It makes little sense to build onto it before design can visit Voyager property logo in a big way.

Looking at Vidiian cards the way Decipher designed them is for Voyager block play not to be the most competitive thing in the open format.

I think the question as to if they "need" a booster set is moot because they simply don't deserve to be a tier 1 affiliation.

I would challenge this.

Decipher designed and to work with other affiliations. In that context they were good "half affiliations" to pair with and later .

When the CC decided to errata The Kazon Collective and The Vidiian Sodality to remove that cooperation piece, we were left with "half affiliations" that could only be rounded out with , which limits the options and strategies available.

Given that we're almost 8 years removed from that errata decision and it's a very different game now, if we don't want to invest the resources in building out and , then maybe we should revisit this errata decision in the context of , , and and [Ctrl]+[Z] that errata to make "Delta Quadrant" a faction.

[Spectre9]

Fair point Armus.

I didn't know that. What was the reasons behind it? Too powerful?

Nobody wants to play delta these days.

I think this is one of those things the CC does poorly. Revisiting old eratta and bans when the meta changes. Set it and forget it kinda strategy.

[Discovery suxs]

Vidiians are a goo faced side plot species. I don't get the love.

Unless it's just the simple fact that they are the weakest affiliation by virtue of them having no story to build around except organ harvesting and not much extra personnel to build on.

There's also the whole delta quadrant thing. Delta quadrant is already awkward as it is. It makes little sense to build onto it before design can visit Voyager property logo in a big way.

Looking at Vidiian cards the way Decipher designed them is for Voyager block play not to be the most competitive thing in the open format.

I think the question as to if they "need" a booster set is moot because they simply don't deserve to be a tier 1 affiliation.

I would challenge this.

Decipher designed and to work with other affiliations. In that context they were good "half affiliations" to pair with and later .

When the CC decided to errata The Kazon Collective and The Vidiian Sodality to remove that cooperation piece, we were left with "half affiliations" that could only be rounded out with , which limits the options and strategies available.

Given that we're almost 8 years removed from that errata decision and it's a very different game now, if we don't want to invest the resources in building out and , then maybe we should revisit this errata decision in the context of , , and and [Ctrl]+[Z] that errata to make "Delta Quadrant" a faction.

You can use alpha na too. You just have to think about it. Yeah I definitely agree with you though.

I mean sit down and play tos deck then any delta deck. It will be wtf honestly.

I don't care what anyone says the final frontier changed the game. It put tos and 22nd century at the same speed. Tng in 3rd place. Ds9 in 4th. You have to panel the camera back to find delta in 5th place. I think that is a fair judgment.

[Discovery suxs]

I agree

Delta is harder than it should be honesty. Delta is a true example 1e cares more about flavor than gameplay.

I tried the delta Klingons. When home away from home is the only thing. It sucks honestly. When you combine it with alpha you are having to travel back and forth just for those Klingons.

Voyager romulans are just personnel honestly. I rather seen those slots go to some other personnel. We already have enough pointless personnel that never gets played in the current game.

Voyager ferengi are the same as romulans

Kazon can at least manage 2 freeplay engines.

Hirogen have alot of tricks.

I gave up on voyager federation. If you don't do the time location and shuttlecraft incident. They don't have anything else but the crappy home away from home. Which you have to seed for federation. I just used lewis Zimmerman with the holograms instead. Since I can rods Zimmerman first turn.

I tried borg but that is just because I don't want to bookkeep everything is why I don't like borg.

Look at everything mirror and gamma have honestly.
Delta is like the bastard step child 1e keeps in the basement compare to the other quadrants.

There is one thing to remember here as far as Voyager logo Ferengi and Romulans. They are not, and were never meant to be, personnel. When these cards released quadrant divisions were obviously a thing but the logo property stuff was CC introduced. In that regard their usability was not destroyed by Decipher and this was a way to give other tools to affiliations that normally wouldn't get tools because of the theme of the expansion but by the insistence that affiliations be subdivided by property logo.

I do think though there should be a voyager block to go with the other blocks, and it would be nice to have ways to report those cards easier to non locations but that one I doubt will happen.

Voyager ferengi can find a home in a mixed ferengi deck.

Voyager romulans are harder since you can't put them in tng or ds9 decks. They are alpha so you have to work with delta decks. One of them takes a AU doorway too. So unless you doing something with hqs or spires of Romulus. I doubt the voyager romulans will be in your deck.

[Slayer07]

I agree

Delta is harder than it should be honesty. Delta is a true example 1e cares more about flavor than gameplay.

I tried the delta Klingons. When home away from home is the only thing. It sucks honestly. When you combine it with alpha you are having to travel back and forth just for those Klingons.

Voyager romulans are just personnel honestly. I rather seen those slots go to some other personnel. We already have enough pointless personnel that never gets played in the current game.

Voyager ferengi are the same as romulans

Kazon can at least manage 2 freeplay engines.

Hirogen have alot of tricks.

I gave up on voyager federation. If you don't do the time location and shuttlecraft incident. They don't have anything else but the crappy home away from home. Which you have to seed for federation. I just used lewis Zimmerman with the holograms instead. Since I can rods Zimmerman first turn.

I tried borg but that is just because I don't want to bookkeep everything is why I don't like borg.

Look at everything mirror and gamma have honestly.
Delta is like the bastard step child 1e keeps in the basement compare to the other quadrants.

There is one thing to remember here as far as Voyager logo Ferengi and Romulans. They are not, and were never meant to be, personnel. When these cards released quadrant divisions were obviously a thing but the logo property stuff was CC introduced. In that regard their usability was not destroyed by Decipher and this was a way to give other tools to affiliations that normally wouldn't get tools because of the theme of the expansion but by the insistence that affiliations be subdivided by property logo.

I do think though there should be a voyager block to go with the other blocks, and it would be nice to have ways to report those cards easier to non locations but that one I doubt will happen.

Voyager ferengi can find a home in a mixed ferengi deck.

Voyager romulans are harder since you can't put them in tng or ds9 decks. They are alpha so you have to work with delta decks. One of them takes a AU doorway too. So unless you doing something with hqs or spires of Romulus. I doubt the voyager romulans will be in your deck.

You're missing my point a bit, my analysis was back before there were such official things as or . Before Continuing Mission and Spires of Romulus and all of the property logo division stuff (something for the record I highly dislike). When it just mattered what personnel worked best for the deck regardless of property logo or icon. When all that mattered was "I want a Romulan owned Federation ship, I can splash USS Prometheus and Rekar in my deck and who cares if it's the only two Voyager icons in my entire deck because property logos are basically irrelevant."

[Armus]

No-Property Romulan is a tier one deck.

No reason you can't work Voyager Romulans into it and be competitive.

[Marquetry]

Vidiians are a goo faced side plot species. I don't get the love.

Unless it's just the simple fact that they are the weakest affiliation by virtue of them having no story to build around except organ harvesting and not much extra personnel to build on.

There's also the whole delta quadrant thing. Delta quadrant is already awkward as it is. It makes little sense to build onto it before design can visit Voyager property logo in a big way.

Looking at Vidiian cards the way Decipher designed them is for Voyager block play not to be the most competitive thing in the open format.

I think the question as to if they "need" a booster set is moot because they simply don't deserve to be a tier 1 affiliation.

I would challenge this.

Decipher designed and to work with other affiliations. In that context they were good "half affiliations" to pair with and later .

When the CC decided to errata The Kazon Collective and The Vidiian Sodality to remove that cooperation piece, we were left with "half affiliations" that could only be rounded out with , which limits the options and strategies available.

Given that we're almost 8 years removed from that errata decision and it's a very different game now, if we don't want to invest the resources in building out and , then maybe we should revisit this errata decision in the context of , , and and [Ctrl]+[Z] that errata to make "Delta Quadrant" a faction.

I forgot it was the CC that did this... who came up with this bad idea, in addition to the YAAM rule crap?? (I know this far down the road there probably isn't an answer).

So yes, there's no reason to discount the , we at least should fix what's been done to them.

[BCSWowbagger]

I forgot it was the CC that did this... who came up with this bad idea, in addition to the YAAM rule crap?? (I know this far down the road there probably isn't an answer).

This was before I returned to the game, much less joined the staff, but I got curious and did some research. Obviously, I can't share names (and wouldn't if I could). If it weren't over 8 years old and mostly involving people who are gone, I wouldn't share anything at all and would leave it to those involved instead... but it's a long time ago now, so here's an overview of how these erratae came to be:

The auto-treaty-stripping happened in 2011, and it happened more or less by acclamation.

There was an ongoing discussion of Delta. For those with access, you can see it here, and it's fascinating reading involving a lot of folks we don't see much (or at all) anymore. The thread started with this:

Ok, as the recent Observe Greatness thread mentioned, Delta decks still weigh heavily on people and the game environment... and yes, the SCIENCE trio can easily be used in the DQ.

So... we do need to talk long-term solutions... a lot of ideas have been put out there, but none of them seem to really strike at the core of the problem.

DQ decks are far too easy to make. Their personnel have higher-than-average abilities and skill counts. I'm not sure how their missions stack up... are they "easier"? They have no Homeworlds to really exploit in the truest sense. They don't have HQ's... but they really don't need them.

So, what can we do?
The thousand cuts idea is ultimately not a good solution... it'll help, but alone it's not enough.

The furthest extreme... banning and errata... are areas we MIGHT have to talk about, but I'd like to see what else we can do before we go down that path.

Let's discuss... and Allen, I'd like to get Rules' input on the whole thing, too.

Various solutions, both moderate and radical, were proposed (by various people) to address the problem, such as:

-How would it change/hurt the game if downloads did NOT ignore quadrant? AMS can't download Deltas to the AQ (and vice versa) and so on...

- consider nerfing DQ cards during BC conversion: make the missions harder, that sort of thing. (File under "limit the damage")

- Give Alpha more reasons (and maybe ways?) to go to Delta and mess with them. Actually, more reasons for Alpha to get out of Alpha in general. (either to Mirror, Gamma, or Delta).

- In general, I think carrot-and-stick might work, so long as Delta gets the stick and the weaker groups get the carrot.

-Black Hole-style cards (that insert into spacelines and become locations), but only work in DQ, and represent various hazards. A nice cheap way for players to make Dairy Deltas an uglier place to live.

-Perhaps a Krenim Imperium cycle? "Year of Hell" seems an appropriate motto for what we're talking about.

-a Balancing Act that fucks over the . Or make it a rule that you have to solve an mission to win. That's a sledgehammer, and it's what it takes.

Eventually, in the face of reluctance to pull out the sledgehammer, somebody said this, which I think was very clever:

There is a very finicky Venn diagram (I wish) of Delta affiliations ( ) and their abusiveness/overpowered-ness. While alone isn't a big deal, is + ? Can we build a hammer narrow enough to hit only what we want to hit but heavy enough to really punish the ones that need it? Would targeting Kazon Collective and Vidiian Sodality accomplish it?

One person had already suggested removing the auto-treaty in a different thread (which I can't find), so that immediately got brought into this thread. The idea solved a lot of the problems the team was discussing in a relatively unobtrusive way, so it quickly carried the day.

This all happened in April 2011. Presumably, it went to playtesting, but all playtesting threads from that time have been removed from staff view (I truly don't understand this), so we can't see now what the test feedback was. In October, the Rules Committee got it and swiftly ratified. The errata was in November's CRD.

One interesting factoid is that Design at the time specifically made plans to evaluate and post-nerf, with a view toward re-introducing specific treaties in order to raise their power level back up in a way that Design could better control. (Specifically mentioned were a / treaty or / treaty.) That obviously never happened -- or, if it did, the decision was to not give them back any treaty functionality.

Another notable fact: the designer who came up with the idea to strip the auto-treaties thought it was important to continue creating new / personnel so that they would gradually no longer need these cards at all, because they would have enough dudes on their own.

So that's the history on this.

If you ask me (and nobody did), I would personally caution against giving DQ more power. I agree that there's a differential right now, but, given the precarious state of the power curve right now, the game's ideal solution would be to deflate the speed and power of the rest of the game, not inflate the speed and power of DQ to match the current / pace.

[Armus]

Ironic suggestion now that now we're complaining about Delta being under-powered relative to the last 3 years of Design. Clearly either there were some lessons not learned or your paradigm of what the game should be isn't in line with Design's/ the Brand Manager's.

[Se7enofMine]

If you ask me (and nobody did), I would personally caution against giving DQ more power. I agree that there's a differential right now, but, given the precarious state of the power curve right now, the game's ideal solution would be to deflate the speed and power of the rest of the game, not inflate the speed and power of DQ to match the current / pace.

Being, imo, one of the most knowledgeable people around these parts, I would say your thoughts are always welcome.

Having said that, the bolded is my long time thinking as well. One of the things that attracted me to the game, some 483893 billion years ago, was the complexity and strategy. My roommate and I used to play games that last 2 hours (this was around Mirror Mirror). This appealed to me since most of the other CCGs were games that lasted a very short amount of time. STCCG stood in another area with very little company.

The game still requires forethought and strategy but I think those strategies are SOMEwhat mitigated by the current wave of "report salad" and endgame within 8 turns. Your strategy becomes a wee bit less important when, by turn 4, you are attemping a mission with 20 dudes in play.

I realize I am in the minority on this and most people prefer the current speed aspect of the game. That is great and I cant/wont speak for them. However, as noted above, my current line of thinking is to slow it down a bit. Maybe bake in a rule to OTF where free plays per turn are limited? I dont know. I dont have an obvious answer. Again, just my feelings on the matter.

[Discovery suxs]

Ironic suggestion now that now we're complaining about Delta being under-powered relative to the last 3 years of Design. Clearly either there were some lessons not learned or your paradigm of what the game should be isn't in line with Design's/ the Brand Manager's.

The problem is design is a sports team that keeps changing coachs and players. So the gameplan is always changing with design team.

Study divergent history should work for delta in my opinion. It would be a small change but they don't have alot of card draw options. How is it fair delta only one that can't use it. You might say flavorwise it makes no sense. Well gamma can use it.

I just feel like everytime design makes a set. Delta is not in the picture.