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 tournament legality of preview VPs 
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Post tournament legality of preview VPs
from the latest OP guide:

Quote:
Promo cards distributed by the Continuing Committee in prize kits are legal for play as soon as they have been won. This includes White-Border Preview cards (those bearing a “P” rarity) that have not yet been released in a virtual expansion.


SERIOUSLY???

i am very much against this stealth change, unless a printable version of the preview card gets released the very same day.
decipher wasn't this stupid, dammit. and they were trying to use those cards to make money.
making preview promos tournament legal creates an uneven playing field:
- not everybody knows the card exists, so they cannot properly prepare
- even if they know it exists, they cannot use it themselves (we have gotten rid of this inequality when we made all cards printable. now we're sliding back?)
- the card isn't available in trekcc's db, so decks containing it cannot even be properly entered
- how is anybody supposed to verify the "as soon as they have been won" condition? designers, volunteers, TDs purchasing kits,... anybody with early access to such cards is at an advantage. what about trade?
- as a non-foil white bordered VP, cut rectangularly and glued to a decipher card, counterfeiting it with a decent color printer should be easy. do you want to create an incentive to do that?
- if i show you a white-bordered card you don't know or find in trekcc's database, how are you (or the TD, for that matter) supposed to verify it is a real card?

making such cards tournament legal would have been bad even when they were just mediocre nouns, but the latest such card is a rather strong DILEMMA.
(please note that i'm not arguing for myself - i already own a copy of said dilemma. no comment on whether it was "won"...)

anyway, until this gets changed, personally i will:
- refuse to participate in any constructed tournament that allows the use of a card that wasn't known and available to each participant ahead of time.
- in my own tournaments, either ban such cards, or provide unoffical copies to each participant and allow them to use them. (this includes any championship-level tournaments that i help to run.)

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Last edited by Winner of Borg on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:53 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
I believe this card should be made visible on the website as a minimum. Until then, "Persistent Individuality" will not be legal at any events I run - including British Nationals.

It does still create an uneven playing environment, perhaps a "low-res printable version" could be allowed until full release?

Something which can potentially kill 7 personnel is perhaps too strong a dilemma to have used as a test case!

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:24 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
then again, i've just seen that the OP guide also says:

Quote:
All cards, whether produced by Decipher, Inc. or The Continuing Committee, are printable and legal for use in sanctioned events.


so, basically, as i read this, the preview P card IS printable already. we are free to copy it. trekcc is simply not providing the image. which makes my solution 2, provide copies to all your players, the officially supported approach, i guess? :)

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:28 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Are you guys discussing a card that only some people know about?

I'm confused.


Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:40 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Winner of Borg wrote:
then again, i've just seen that the OP guide also says:

Quote:
All cards, whether produced by Decipher, Inc. or The Continuing Committee, are printable and legal for use in sanctioned events.


so, basically, as i read this, the preview P card IS printable already. we are free to copy it. trekcc is simply not providing the image. which makes my solution 2, provide copies to all your players, the officially supported approach, i guess? :)
Just so we are clear, the only goal of this change was to incentivize the purchase of tournament kits. Tournament kits remain the Continuing Committee's primary source of revenue, and without kits being purchased the sustainability of Organized Play and everything else that comes with the Continuing Committee's stewardship of the games is in jeopardy. Buying kits keeps us alive. I cannot state that more directly.

That said, my (obviously incorrect) understanding when we made that change was that the preview card(s) would be spoiled on the site in some form - most likely as a Card of the Day - before they started showing up in tournament kits. I further (apparently also incorrectly) assumed the preview cards would be non-game breaking nouns akin to Centurion Kirk. We even had conversations about this very thing at my local gigs before I went forward with the change to the OP guide (Hobie or BCSWowbagger can back me up here.) Steve and anyone else upset, all I can say is I hear your frustrations and we are having internal conversations about ways to move forward. My hope is we can all learn from this, get the card onto the site for all to see as soon as possible, and make it printable so the playing field stays even.

Thanks for reading.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:48 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Spectre9 wrote:
Are you guys discussing a card that only some people know about?


we're basically discussing a white-bordered preview promo that was sent out with some recent tournament kits, akin to e.g. Centurion Kirk. the latest such promo is a rather strong dilemma that hasn't been made public on trekcc so far. yet, according to the updated OPG, it is supposed to be tournament legal as soon as somebody wins a copy.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:51 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
I wasn't aware of the legality myself, thanks for the info. Definitely a terrible idea though. I got that preview dilemma in a tournament kit that i won't give out until next year, but it makes me wonder if there is other stuff out there I don't know of; the idea of somebody using such cards against people who don't know about them in tournaments is horrible. I get the idea of generating buzz with previews (the way the "50" cards revealed at Worlds 2016 by Paddy was great, for example), but this practice is the stuff that will alienate players more likely.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:51 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Johannes / Steve, I'm listening and interested in finding a solution that will satisfy both sides.

How would everyone's take on this be if it were released as a 1-off promo, kinda like the Surprise Party release. Everyone can / could print a 9-up of it in Black Border if they wanted, but the White Bordered preview version would only be found in tournament kits. Still some small incentive to purchasing a tournament kit, but maintaining equal access for all. Thoughts?

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:59 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
LORE wrote:
How would everyone's take on this be if it were released as a 1-off promo, kinda like the Surprise Party release. Everyone can / could print a 9-up of it in Black Border if they wanted, but the White Bordered preview version would only be found in tournament kits. Still some small incentive to purchasing a tournament kit, but maintaining equal access for all. Thoughts?


just to be very clear about this, are you suggesting
A) reverting that OPG change, making cards only tournament legal once a printable copy exists (possibly visually distinct, but with identical gameplay), while also making/keeping Centurion Kirk and Persistent Individuality (and probably any future preview promos) tournament legal by releasing some printable variants asap?
or
B) just releasing a printable variant of Persistent Individuality now, because it's strong and made a fuzz
?

B) wouldn't be good enough... but A) sounds fine and is what we had before that OPG change (the white border variants of 59P-62P and 69P-70P have never become printable either), with the added benefit of getting printable variants and an opportunity to play the cards early. thus: A) would be fine by me.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:29 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Winner of Borg wrote:
just to be very clear about this, are you suggesting
A) reverting that OPG change, making cards only tournament legal once a printable copy exists (possibly visually distinct, but with identical gameplay), while also making/keeping Centurion Kirk and Persistent Individuality (and probably any future preview promos) tournament legal by releasing some printable variants asap?
or
B) just releasing a printable variant of Persistent Individuality now, because it's strong and made a fuzz
?

B) wouldn't be good enough... but A) sounds fine and is what we had before that OPG change (the white border variants of 59P-62P and 69P-70P have never become printable either), with the added benefit of getting printable variants and an opportunity to play the cards early. thus: A) would be fine by me.
My understanding is only Centurion Kirk and Persistent Individuality are the true previews that have not yet been released in other sets. Worf, Odo, Borg Queen, Administer Weyoun, and Comm Officer Sato all were released already and can be printed in black border right now. Further, any of the "gaps" cited on the Virtual Promo card list exist simply because the "P" rarity was used for Warp Packs as well (e.g. Warp Pack - Holiday.) Apart from those two cards, nothing else is hidden to my knowledge.

I am proposing we release printable black bordered versions of Centurion Kirk and Persistent Individuality as soon as possible so the OP guide does not contradict itself.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:53 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Obvious solution: post the game text, not the image (or the UP mockup, even). Then people can't print the image for free, but still know that (a) the card exists and (b) that a player didn't just fire up Photoshop and make their very own Exclusive Tournament Promo.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:54 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
that's fine and good as a stopgap, but what about future promos / preview cards, what happens when somebody else decides to hand out the next promo before a printable version is released? come to think of it, what about 2E's Shining So Bright right now?

cards should only be tournament legal once a printable version (possbily visually distinct, but at least with identical gameplay) is publicly available. fixing this problem by releasing images of the few cards that cause an issue NOW can only ever be a temporary fix, and is inviting future problems. unless you are immortal and the only person who holds the secret to produce physical trekcc promos... on the longer term, the OPG needs to be fixed.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:07 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Winner of Borg wrote:
cards should only be tournament legal once a printable version (possbily visually distinct, but at least with identical gameplay) is publicly available.


Except the whole point is that they don't *want* a printable version in the field, because they want you going to tournaments and getting your copy there. (I personally dislike tournament exclusives, but I accept that they work.)

So, putting a database entry up with the card text, but just a placeholder "Get this card at your local tournament!" ad image lets us plebes at least know that the card exists.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:10 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
AllenGould wrote:
Obvious solution: post the game text, not the image (or the UP mockup, even). Then people can't print the image for free, but still know that (a) the card exists and (b) that a player didn't just fire up Photoshop and make their very own Exclusive Tournament Promo.


no. that would only solve the smallest part of the problem. a card should not be tournament legal before everybody has access to it. we've made all decipher cards printable to create a level playing field; and with virtual promos the problem is actually WORSE than it was with decipher cards, because trekcc cannot allow them being sold on ebay.

AllenGould wrote:
Except the whole point is that they don't *want* a printable version in the field, because they want you going to tournaments and getting your copy there. (I personally dislike tournament exclusives, but I accept that they work.)

So, putting a database entry up with the card text, but just a placeholder "Get this card at your local tournament!" ad image lets us plebes at least know that the card exists.


if that's what "they" want, then i want "them" burned at the stake. i do not support a return to the stone age where some cards, gameplay-wise, are not available to every player before they can be used against them. it's bad enough for collectors as is.

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:17 am
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Post Re: tournament legality of preview VPs
Winner of Borg wrote:
no. that would only solve the smallest part of the problem.


(snip)

I'm with you on the rest (but I accept that if the goal is "increase tournament attendance", giving out cards that require attendance is the strategy that works, so long as you don't fall into the "winner only" trap), but I'd argue the bigger problem than "you have this card and I don't" is "here's this card you have no way of verifying exists".

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Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:45 am
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