[winterflames]

LORE, the entire process youve outlined is creating a barrier to new players at tournaments.

if i want to play in my first tournament with a certain deck type that needs a certain card, your saying i need to either go back in time and get it at another tournament (vulcan science says time travel is impossible) or pay some resources, probably extesnive, to acquire it, like trading old decipher foils or cash or whatever.

your creating two classes of players. those who have acess to all the cards, by being tournament regulars or rich, and those who do not have acess to all the cards. is that the kind of organized play environment you want to create?

i understand you want to make these tournament kits attractive to buy to keep things running. theres two solutions.

first, you can make the card avaialble to print on the website before it becomes legal. if you want to use different or worse art for the website version, that would make the tournament kit still attractive without creating two divisions of players. maybe not the same uber attractiveness as before, but at least its no longer unfair.

or second, you can make the preview cards not tournament legal. that way people can still think these cards are really cool and make the kits attractive, because there actually seeing a piece of the future that most people dont see, and they can show it off to there friends and use it in the home games. but if you make it not legal, you dont create player classes. so its purely marketing without breaking the environment.

You know, you can host tournaments and start acquiring tournament kits yourself, right?
Even I have hosted events, although mine was a spectacular failure due to being scheduled in "TeaTime with Deadpool"s abandoned timeslot.

[Boffo97]

If it was considered acceptable to purchase tournament kits for one's own use (and enough were produced that it wouldn't be taking away resources from others), I'd do that. Of course then you have the dilemma that incentive to play tournaments is taken away.

At the very least though, it'd nice to get some 1E card playsets in the Promenade. There's only 2 playsets right now and both are 2E.

[Marquetry]

I second this. There are simply people who, for whatever reason, do not have the chance to get to a tournament or cannot get to a tournament. It also makes it impossible for those who want to collect but not play to get cards like that. These 'exclusives' should not exist in a world where we can print out any card and for some this does not work it simply alienates people and force them to possibly leave.

I am not sure I follow. Currently, alternate image tournament foils are awarded at various OP events in which the tournament director ordered a kit. These are foils of currently existing cards, and after a period of exclusivity, the alternate image then becomes printable. This has been standard practice for several years.

Is your issue with this process in general, or with the release of this specific card at this specific time? Help me understand.

The problem is that these white-border previews are new cards, with new gameplay, that only a few select people get to have, or even know exist. The normal tourney kits have AI's of existing cards. Big difference!

[BCSWowbagger]

I like the idea of there being one card in the entire game, at any given time, that I might not be able to access (for six months, until it's printable). For me, that brings back just the tiniest amount of that old CCG "not everybody has all the cards" (I certainly never did!) flair without making the game pay-to-win. I was aware of the OPG change, and I believe the article about the OPG updates specifically mentioned this several months ago. All these preview cards become playable in due time (just like the old Decipher white-border cards), and, as long as there's only one circulating at a time, and it's not a game-changing monstrosity, that's fine with me.

I don't like the idea that the card is invisible to the world. Although I'd seen it in the Dev pipeline, I didn't realize that Persistent Individuality was out in the wild until yesterday, and I immediately PM'd Dan to say, "Hey, shouldn't this be in the database? So people at least know it exists?" I should have, in retrospect, PM'd JeBuS as well, since it's his bailiwick to make that call. But I don't think the plan was ever for there to be a limited-access card floating around secretly.

Putting the text in the database is easy, and I'll do it now if Mael or eberlems hasn't already done it in the past couple hours.

[LORE]

You know, you can host tournaments and start acquiring tournament kits yourself, right?

Just wanted to use this opportunity to remind everyone that anybody can host a tournament, and that all they need is 2 other players for sanctioning and a 24-hour advance notice on the CC site. OP has worked diligently in the past year to make tournaments more accessible to everyone.

If it was considered acceptable to purchase tournament kits for one's own use, I'd do that.

As far as I know, I believe you can.

[JeBuS]

I don't like the idea that the card is invisible to the world. Although I'd seen it in the Dev pipeline, I didn't realize that Persistent Individuality was out in the wild until yesterday, and I immediately PM'd Dan to say, "Hey, shouldn't this be in the database? So people at least know it exists?" I should have, in retrospect, PM'd JeBuS as well, since it's his bailiwick to make that call. But I don't think the plan was ever for there to be a limited-access card floating around secretly.

Putting the text in the database is easy, and I'll do it now if Mael or eberlems hasn't already done it in the past couple hours.

Organizationally, I don't think this is my call. While I could facilitate adding it to the database (though that's not something I've done before), this is an issue with OP and 1e. What cards are legal or visible isn't my call at all.

[BCSWowbagger]

Fair enough! Then I don't know whom I should've PM'd.

Here's the card, at any rate: https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?mod ... ardID=5589

I got the text and lore from UP, but it appears to agree with Charlie's, so that's good. Not sure of the image source because I only glanced at the real card and obviously don't have one handy. I THINK it was "Survival Instinct" but not sure. And I basically deduced the card number by looking at the holes in the VP list combined with the fact that I know this card got rules/creative review in 2017. Hopefully the number is correct!

[Winner of Borg]

the one i have is actually a space-only dilemma, and the collector's number is 98P.

I like the idea of there being one card in the entire game, at any given time, that I might not be able to access (for six months, until it's printable). For me, that brings back just the tiniest amount of that old CCG "not everybody has all the cards" (I certainly never did!) flair without making the game pay-to-win.

to me, that is just horrible. whether it is one card, or hundreds, it is simply the difference between a game where everybody has full access to the cards, and a game where they don't.

personally, since at least First Contact, i've always bought enough product to have access to all cards, and while from a gameplay point of view i vastly prefer the unlimited-copies design of 1E to the max-3-copies design of 2E, the one good thing i found about the latter was that it was finally possible to have a complete playset of all cards. the full printability of all decipher cards has eliminated this issue for everybody, and i don't want it back. ever.

I was aware of the OPG change, and I believe the article about the OPG updates specifically mentioned this several months ago.

i guess... found it:
https://www.trekcc.org/articles/index.p ... cleID=2487
it's somewhere around the 3rd page in a list of around 30 small changes, not standing out in any way. unfortunately, i haven't noticed then, lost interest in the OPG updates somewhere around the draft format changes, otherwise we'd have had this discussion a lot sooner. you think i'm making a stink now? try to imagine what would have happened if somebody had tried playing one of these cards at wolds this year...

from my point of view, a change of this magnitude - again, this is not about "a single card" but about a game where ALL cards are available to all players vs. a game where some are not - should have had a public discussion beforehand, and if approved anyway, a much bigger announcement.

making the latest such card publicly known may solve some of the issues, but is not enough. cards that are not available to everybody should not be tournament legal ever again - and definitely will not be at any tournament i organize or participate in. if you aren't willing to reverse the official policy, i suppose we still can provide extra photocopies of known preview cards to all players (the OPG says that all cards are printable, after all), and announce all tournaments as Limited cardpool (Complete except for any hypothetical preview cards that haven't been made available to all).

[AllenGould]

Here's the card, at any rate: https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?mod ... ardID=5589

That is perfect. Searchable, enough detail that players can confirm that yes, this is a real card.

[MidnightLich]

It is only; I've corrected my original post. It is 98 P.

-crp

[eberlems]

I'm out of the loop for these ?P/VP/WB? cards.
There should be 3 continental 2019 promos and a 219 VP Condition Red (1E).
I do know of one other card handed out at worlds but that wasn't WB.

But I did spot some 2E 1 X, 1 B and 49 V.

[Kaiser]

Here's the card, at any rate: https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?mod ... ardID=5589

That is perfect. Searchable, enough detail that players can confirm that yes, this is a real card.

Apart from the fact that this database entry is not at all what the actual card says, yes. Steve's post has the correct info, it's space only and a P card, not VP. Please update the database accordingly.

[AllenGould]

Here's the card, at any rate: https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?mod ... ardID=5589

That is perfect. Searchable, enough detail that players can confirm that yes, this is a real card.

Apart from the fact that this database entry is not at all what the actual card says, yes. Steve's post has the correct info, it's space only and a P card, not VP. Please update the database accordingly.

Which is a good argument for having a database entry in the first place.

[Armus]

Fair enough! Then I don't know whom I should've PM'd.

Here's the card, at any rate: https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?mod ... ardID=5589

I got the text and lore from UP, but it appears to agree with Charlie's, so that's good. Not sure of the image source because I only glanced at the real card and obviously don't have one handy. I THINK it was "Survival Instinct" but not sure. And I basically deduced the card number by looking at the holes in the VP list combined with the fact that I know this card got rules/creative review in 2017. Hopefully the number is correct!

That's a great card! I think it's good for the game.

... As long as everybody has access to it. If I brought a Borg deck to a tournament and had this dropped on me mid scouting attempt and I'd never seen it before, and the explanation I got from the TD was "oh yeah that's totally legal, it's in the OPG," I'd get a little cranky.

Like, Table flipping cranky (I'd at least WANT to flip the table over even if I didn't actually end up doing it). I definitely wouldn't be feeling the urge to play in another tournament for awhile.

If someone had played Administrator Weyoun or Centurion Kirk I would be surprised, and maybe a little annoyed, but my reaction probably wouldn't be as visceral.

So if we're going to do this craziness, let's a) announce the cards for awareness, and b) keep the preview cards relatively niche and not of the auto-include or super-combo-enabler variety.

Also, may wanna keep them to nouns.

[BCSWowbagger]

^ Fair points, Armus. Certainly when I read the OPG update, I was thinking of Centurion Kirk (who is basically harmless) and had no realization that Persistent Individuality (which is much stronger) was going to get the same treatment.

If I'd learned about this via Persistent Individuality instead of Centurion Kirk, my reaction might have been a good deal less warm.

I never, ever had access to all the cards. One of the distinctive things about the game was that there were good decks out there that I literally could not run, because I lacked the cards. There was a certain challenge involved in trying to make up for those gaps with different or equivalent cards. Now, mostly, that was very frustrating, and I would never want to go back to it. But there was pleasure in figuring out the right way (or an even better way!) of doing something powerful with lower-rarity cards, and this change gestures toward that legacy in a tiny way that I find pleasing. I wouldn't ever want it expanded beyond one or two cards, and agree they shouldn't be amazing cards, but it's part of our legacy -- far moreso, frankly, than some of the sacred cows we have about certain old cards and rules -- and I like seeing it honored in this way.

That's just my perspective, though. I understand a more negative view.

P.S. Thanks to whoever fixed the db entry.