[Discovery suxs]

There are some "human" related cards in the game already (at least for the Mirror Quadrant):

An Important Victory
Rebellious Servants
Replenish Workforce

- James M

Card1 has nothing to do with humans.

Indirectly it does as it removes the negative points from Rebellious Servants.

- James M

Ok I always thought terran hq was better than an important victory. There is not enough ds9 m federation in the game for a complete deck. The hq helps with this problem.

[Discovery rox]

the reason other species have specific cards helping them is because there already weaker. the other species dont have captain picard and riker and geordi and doctor crusher and doctor bashir and sisko and so on. each other species has a couple of main stars with lots of skills but not dozens like the humans do.

humans are the strongest species in the game. they dont need any help. so if you make a deck with only humans, its not much weaker then a federation deck that also has non humans. in fact there are so many humans that it could probably be identical in power.

so if your going to give humans only decks a card that gives them extra powers, then it needs to also give them extra weaknesses, because having only humans in your deck isnt really a weakness.

[Slayer07]

the reason other species have specific cards helping them is because there already weaker. the other species dont have captain picard and riker and geordi and doctor crusher and doctor bashir and sisko and so on. each other species has a couple of main stars with lots of skills but not dozens like the humans do.

humans are the strongest species in the game. they dont need any help. so if you make a deck with only humans, its not much weaker then a federation deck that also has non humans. in fact there are so many humans that it could probably be identical in power.

so if your going to give humans only decks a card that gives them extra powers, then it needs to also give them extra weaknesses, because having only humans in your deck isnt really a weakness.

There was a time I would have agreed with you on that. These days, not so much. Yeah I grant that the is full of power houses, especially if you ignore the whole limit by property logo/icon thing, but the gap is not as wide as it used to be. The exception to that being non affiliations but that is an old topic and one that has very little to build on in any case.

[Boffo97]

I would at least like a Kolinahr-esque card that lets all humans work together. My take on Kolinahr was that it was the fix for people who wanted a expansion that included TOS era and "modern" Vulcans.

The same logic allows this would seem to apply to Humans and . Even though you CAN justify anything if you work hard enough at it and squint a bit, it always seemed silly to me that Jonathan Archer refused to work with Captain Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard, etc. (or vice versa) given that they're ultimately in the same Starfleet.

If we can't have a Starfleet/Federation "treaty" (or a generic "Pick any two non- affiliations and they can work together" card that isn't invulnerable to nullification by cards other than The Devil), then this is a reasonable step IMO.

Just don't make the Humans work together card Terra Prime related. While what they're doing with the concept in 2E is interesting, that shouldn't be why all the humans are working together.

</tangent>

[Slayer07]

I would at least like a Kolinahr-esque card that lets all humans work together. My take on Kolinahr was that it was the fix for people who wanted a expansion that included TOS era and "modern" Vulcans.

The same logic allows this would seem to apply to Humans and . Even though you CAN justify anything if you work hard enough at it and squint a bit, it always seemed silly to me that Jonathan Archer refused to work with Captain Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard, etc. (or vice versa) given that they're ultimately in the same Starfleet.

If we can't have a Starfleet/Federation "treaty" (or a generic "Pick any two non- affiliations and they can work together" card that isn't invulnerable to nullification by cards other than The Devil), then this is a reasonable step IMO.

Just don't make the Humans work together card Terra Prime related. While what they're doing with the concept in 2E is interesting, that shouldn't be why all the humans are working together.

</tangent>

The problem with a human style Kohlinahr is that it wouldn't really do much. The only cards that would be affected by this are personas of main characters that have different affiliations (like Jean-Luc Picard and his many personas in alpha quadrant affiliations Leosa, Sela, and Shinzon without a Picard around and the affiliation itself. And the same logic applies to non-human personnel. I mean why would Phlox refuse to work with Julian Bashir and Dr. McCoy and vice versa for another example?

I do agree something that would let and work together would be great. I know These Are The Voyages kind of does that already but it'd be nice to have one that doesn't exclude cards, doesn't convert all those personnel to and allow use of ships and facilities. But I doubt we'd see anything like this because of the boost it could give non-property logo players.

[Discovery rox]

kolinahr makes sense because as a power, the vulcans are a minority in the galaxy.

the humans are not. they are a dominant force in the federation, theres little reason for them to have to band together.

i also dont see people like picard and archer working together with people like berlingoff and john paxton just because there all human.

[Slayer07]

kolinahr makes sense because as a power, the vulcans are a minority in the galaxy.

the humans are not. they are a dominant force in the federation, theres little reason for them to have to band together.

i also dont see people like picard and archer working together with people like berlingoff and john paxton just because there all human.

Your last point doesn't hold up. Berlingoff Rasmussen is already so can already work with other humans regardless. And with These Are The Voyages John Paxton will also work with many humans as . And we won't get into how many Treachery personnel they work with, often without knowing it until it's too late.

[AllenGould]

Your last point doesn't hold up. Berlingoff Rasmussen is already so can already work with other humans regardless. And with These Are The Voyages John Paxton will also work with many humans as . And we won't get into how many Treachery personnel they work with, often without knowing it until it's too late.

Wouldn't that mean that These Are The Voyages already covers the "all human" deck type? Allows Feds and Starfleet to work together, and even provides a free report source.

[Slayer07]

Your last point doesn't hold up. Berlingoff Rasmussen is already so can already work with other humans regardless. And with These Are The Voyages John Paxton will also work with many humans as . And we won't get into how many Treachery personnel they work with, often without knowing it until it's too late.

Wouldn't that mean that These Are The Voyages already covers the "all human" deck type? Allows Feds and Starfleet to work together, and even provides a free report source.

No, These Are The Voyages converts all of those personnel (some of who are not human by the way like Phlox and T'Pol) into holograms. They lose their original species, they would not be human anymore then Weiss is human or Iden is Bajoran. Hologram itself is its own separate species. For what it's worth it also means that cards like Prisoner Archer also don't count because he is not . Also it does not effect cards either.

Secondly, These Are The Voyages does not allow use and interaction with ships like Enterprise or facilities. So even though Admiral Riker or Wall Of Ships can theoretically downloads that ship, there is no way for it to be used in a deck.

[Discovery rox]

Your last point doesn't hold up. Berlingoff Rasmussen is already so can already work with other humans regardless.

By work together, i dont mean just cooperate according to the rules. i mean band together tightly in the sense of storyline, the way the other helper cards and species cards work. there is a story being told with those cards, just like there is a story with kolinahr.

what we are discussing is a way of banding people together beyond there affiliation. so people generally dont work with other affiliations, unless some storyline element gives them an even deeper loyalty that goes beyond there affiliation.

what storyline element could possibly make captain picard look beyond his affiliation and ignore that fundamental aspect of his identity so much that he adopts humanity as his primary identity, instead of federation? surely there isnt something that would make him feel closer to berlingoff then he feels to dax.

And with These Are The Voyages John Paxton will also work with many humans as .

and as you pointed out hes a hologram. not the original john paxton. you can program holograms to work with you and do whatever you want, which is what that card is conveying.

when hologram john paxton works with worf and sarek, hes not the real john paxton. hes the toned down, workplace safe version of john paxton from the holodeck.

[Slayer07]

Your last point doesn't hold up. Berlingoff Rasmussen is already so can already work with other humans regardless.

By work together, i dont mean just cooperate according to the rules. i mean band together tightly in the sense of storyline, the way the other helper cards and species cards work. there is a story being told with those cards, just like there is a story with kolinahr.

what we are discussing is a way of banding people together beyond there affiliation. so people generally dont work with other affiliations, unless some storyline element gives them an even deeper loyalty that goes beyond there affiliation.

what storyline element could possibly make captain picard look beyond his affiliation and ignore that fundamental aspect of his identity so much that he adopts humanity as his primary identity, instead of federation? surely there isnt something that would make him feel closer to berlingoff then he feels to dax.

That's a problem regardless. Consider again your scenario where Kohlinahr allows all Vulcans to work together. It looks for species and affiliation so cards like Jonathan Archer (Live Long and Prosper) can work with Tallera because they are both 'Vulcan' and yet by story line this doesn't work out because Tallera is an isolationist and would still oppose working with Archer because he is not a real Vulcan. That's just, as siskoid often put it, the difference between Trek Sense and Playability. And for the record, I think Jean-Luc Picard would do so without hesitation if a storyline called for working with Rasmussen, it would be the other way around that would be a problem.

And with These Are The Voyages John Paxton will also work with many humans as .

and as you pointed out hes a hologram. not the original john paxton. you can program holograms to work with you and do whatever you want, which is what that card is conveying.

when hologram john paxton works with worf and sarek, hes not the real john paxton. hes the toned down, workplace safe version of john paxton from the holodeck.

And again we have story line verse playability here. Because a holographic John Paxton could also be programmed exactly as his real life person was and in which case your reasoning falls flat. You can do anything with programming and in this instance I think it is best to assume he is being programmed as the real deal and not a workplace safe version.

[Discovery rox]

but we know there programmed differently from the original versions because there loyalty changes.

[Slayer07]

but we know there programmed differently from the original versions because there loyalty changes.

How do you figure that one? The only 'evidence' I see is them going from to based on These Are the Voyages effect. And really since is pre that's not much of a loyalty change at least in my book.

[Discovery rox]

its enough of a loyalty change to alter one of the core mechanics of the game.

[StateofSTCCG]

It's time for the Xindi! #bringit