This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.

Which TNG main character is most in need of a new version?

Picard
1
3%
Riker
4
11%
Data
1
3%
Geordi
3
8%
Worf
1
3%
Beverly
1
3%
Troi
1
3%
Yar
5
14%
Pulaski
9
24%
Wesley
11
30%
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486214
i saw science as being about research and engineer as being about applying science and technology to solve problems. data isnt really about research, hes about fixing situations the enterprise gets involved in using science. thats why hes the operations officer, not the science officer.

the enterprise d doesnt have a chief science officer, it has multiple science divisions, since its such a huge vessel. we dont often see those scientists on the show, so there not a bridge crew. but characters like neela darren are science heads.

one of the things that makes the ds9 bridge crew unique is that they actually have a science officer, jadzia dax, whose main job is science, so thats reflected on her card.
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486228
Discovery rox wrote:i saw science as being about research and engineer as being about applying science and technology to solve problems. data isnt really about research, hes about fixing situations the enterprise gets involved in using science. thats why hes the operations officer, not the science officer.

the enterprise d doesnt have a chief science officer, it has multiple science divisions, since its such a huge vessel. we dont often see those scientists on the show, so there not a bridge crew. but characters like neela darren are science heads.

one of the things that makes the ds9 bridge crew unique is that they actually have a science officer, jadzia dax, whose main job is science, so thats reflected on her card.
Not entirely true. Data is just as capable of doing that research you are talking about. In fact the very truth of the matter is the only skills in the entire game that should be beyond Data's reach are species specific skills like Empathy or Mindmeld and intelligence skills like Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order. But of course we all know that that would truly be broken.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#486262
Thanks for your thoughts, good input for my frame of reference.

Actually, a Data with only the following skill would not be much more broken than K'chiQ:

OFFICER
[SD] At start of turn, choose any skill (except any Intelligence, Resistance, CIVILIAN, ANIMAL, VIP, SECURITY, MEDICAL, OFFICER, Empathy, Mindmeld, Guramba, Acquisition, Orion Syndicate, Smuggling, Cantankerousness, Barbering, Treachery, or Greed).

So, first turn he's on table, he's an "empty" OFFICER. Penalty!

I left out as many 'living' or 'emotional' skills as possible. (E.g., Smuggling and Acquisition are done by using intuition, IMO.)

Was Resistance an Intel skill?

OTOH, I could argue that Data could have any Intel, but we could also just as easily shove that under "needs intuition". And like some other skills, it doesn't suit him.

I forbade MED and SEC because we never see him really use that as a "profession(al)", I think? (And good to detract on some great skills.)

And I think we could let him have Miracle Worker, but we could also prohibit it. And box is full, anyhow... :lol:
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Retired Moderator
#486263
SudenKapala wrote:OFFICER
[SD] At start of turn, choose any skill (except any Intelligence, Resistance, CIVILIAN, ANIMAL, VIP, SECURITY, MEDICAL, OFFICER, Empathy, Mindmeld, Guramba, Acquisition, Orion Syndicate, Smuggling, Cantankerousness, Barbering, Treachery, or Greed).
The big problem I see there is that this Data could have any skill the designers develop in the future unless he gets errata (which there's only so much room for.)
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By Tim (Tim Davidson)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#486293
Data (Premier) has Exobiology because he mentions honours in it in his first scene.

RIKER: Yes. When the captain suggested you, I looked up your record.
DATA: Yes, sir. A wise procedure, sir, always.
RIKER: Then your rank of Lieutenant Commander is honorary?
DATA: No, sir. Starfleet class of '78. Honours in probability mechanics and exobiology.
RIKER: Your file says that you're an
DATA: Machine, Correct, sir. Does that trouble you?
RIKER: To be honest, yes, a little.
DATA: Understood, sir. Prejudice is very human.
RIKER: Now that does trouble me. Do you consider yourself superior to us?
DATA: I am superior, sir, in many ways, but I would gladly give it up to be human.
RIKER: Nice to meet you, Pinocchio. A joke.
DATA: Ah. Intriguing.
RIKER: You're going to be an interesting companion, Mister Data.

(And Data does bring up his expertise in various alien biology and culture in may episodes after.)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#486296
Boffo97 wrote:
SudenKapala wrote:OFFICER
[SD] At start of turn, choose any skill (except any Intelligence, Resistance, CIVILIAN, ANIMAL, VIP, SECURITY, MEDICAL, OFFICER, Empathy, Mindmeld, Guramba, Acquisition, Orion Syndicate, Smuggling, Cantankerousness, Barbering, Treachery, or Greed).
The big problem I see there is that this Data could have any skill the designers develop in the future unless he gets errata (which there's only so much room for.)
Well that's ONE big problem...

Image

:)
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486314
SudenKapala wrote:Thanks for your thoughts, good input for my frame of reference.

Actually, a Data with only the following skill would not be much more broken than K'chiQ:

OFFICER
[SD] At start of turn, choose any skill (except any Intelligence, Resistance, CIVILIAN, ANIMAL, VIP, SECURITY, MEDICAL, OFFICER, Empathy, Mindmeld, Guramba, Acquisition, Orion Syndicate, Smuggling, Cantankerousness, Barbering, Treachery, or Greed).

So, first turn he's on table, he's an "empty" OFFICER. Penalty!

I left out as many 'living' or 'emotional' skills as possible. (E.g., Smuggling and Acquisition are done by using intuition, IMO.)

Was Resistance an Intel skill?

OTOH, I could argue that Data could have any Intel, but we could also just as easily shove that under "needs intuition". And like some other skills, it doesn't suit him.

I forbade MED and SEC because we never see him really use that as a "profession(al)", I think? (And good to detract on some great skills.)

And I think we could let him have Miracle Worker, but we could also prohibit it. And box is full, anyhow... :lol:
Resistance is technically not a species specific skill but the only ones with it are Bajorans to date except Kira Founder who is posing as a Bajoran. Using the term species specific skill would be better than listing all the intelligence variations and skills like Empathy, Mindmeld, Guramba, that kind of thing.

I wouldn't stop Security or Medical, I see no reason Data can't do either of those things. What's the difference after all between Data and E.M.H.? Plus in theory he can already have Medical just by being with a Medical Kit anyway. And Security isn't that complicated. And for what it's worth I see no reason Data couldn't have the Barbering skill either lol. In fact there was that one episode where he made a kids hair look like his own. I'd also debate Data not having the option of Treachery, based on Data The Sky's the Limit it is something he could do but almost often chooses not to do.

Skills like Smuggling, Acquisition or Greed are a bit iffy. I think in theory Data could do it, I don't think those are 'intuition' skills but rather part of the sums of human knowledge, to say nothing about all the Ferengi written content on it and we have seen him take that stuff and make it work to his advantage.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#486328
Yea, I saw that box overload coming from miles away... Hadn't even expected somebody to try it :lol: (I did that for some custom "project" in the past, to check -- but suure in this case it woulldn't fit AT ALL, lol!)

For the concept argument, I wanted to leave out SEC and MED not to make this Data too overpowered than he'd already be. I agree he coulddo those things. I just thought we'd not want to give him ALL the goodies.

Some Cardies have Resistance, too -- I can picture one -- wait, Rusot? Nope, they don't; I stand self-corrected. :wink:

Aside from that issue, "species specific skill" is also not a game term (AFAIK) and thus cannot (yet) be used like that on a card in this context. :( But, good idea in trying to shorten it.

Slayer, I see we approached his possibilities from different angles. If I'd gone "what could he possibly do", I'd have left in Acq and Smuggling, too. (Not Greed, though -- that's really an emotionally driven characteristic of a person, nurtured during development; not a skill to be learnt, IMO.) And also above-mentioned SEC and MED -- and Barbering, of course he can quickly assmilate that knowledge from a textbook and some LCARS videos. But I wanted to go with a more "who has Data already been to us" feel.
I think both approaches are valid. (I also think that we mostly see cards that go with "what have we seen?" than with hypothetical possibilities -- but there's prolly quite a number of exceptions to that rather generic rule, which might warrant a wider inclusion of Data's skillset within 1e... Still, I'm more of a fan of the former approach, myself.)

In fact, I think it may be a better idea to have the same single skill, but name those he CAN have... (But then we'd have to cut down a bit more, even, on the hypotheticals...)

Also -- while everybody's spilling their wonderful detailed ideas about these issues, I must admit that I think that Honour is a skill that has a lot of 'biological'/'human(e)' content -- i don't know how to say it. But same as Guramba and Greed, and possibly Acquisition (from my POV, where you really have to be able to empathise with the other person, in order to ascertain what they want -- and how to get what you want from them; not just good e-shopping skills*). Still, I do think that Data would qualify for the 'soft skill'(?), Honour. So it's not that black/white for me, either.

*But yes, he could read Gint's book (ROA), and operate according to those; you're right. He might even make a decent Ferengi... but... I don't know.

Treachery -- yes, he could lie, and cheat, if he had to. Still, it's not a skill I really see his cards necessarily having (at all).

And with Barbering, I did also think about that on episode with the kid -- Hero Worship? :cheersL: :thumbsup:
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#486331
Oh -- yeah, good point also about the future skills which he might not have. Dangerous. One more reason to summarize the skills he could/should have...?

Anthropology
? Archaeology
Astrophysics
Biology
Computer Skill
Cybernetics
? Diplomacy
ENGINEER
Exobiology
Geology
Honor
Law
? Leadership
Music
Navigation
Physics
SCIENCE
Stellar Cartography
? Transporter Skill


Nope. That was my "bare" minimum, with too few left-over question marks. (Did we see those things in his tool box? And/or did they come naturally enough to him, like Leadership, to be sustainable?) Never mind! :lol:
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486332
SudenKapala wrote:Yea, I saw that box overload coming from miles away... Hadn't even expected somebody to try it :lol: (I did that for some custom "project" in the past, to check -- but suure in this case it woulldn't fit AT ALL, lol!)

For the concept argument, I wanted to leave out SEC and MED not to make this Data too overpowered than he'd already be. I agree he coulddo those things. I just thought we'd not want to give him ALL the goodies.

Some Cardies have Resistance, too -- I can picture one -- wait, Rusot? Nope, they don't; I stand self-corrected. :wink:

Aside from that issue, "species specific skill" is also not a game term (AFAIK) and thus cannot (yet) be used like that on a card in this context. :( But, good idea in trying to shorten it.

Slayer, I see we approached his possibilities from different angles. If I'd gone "what could he possibly do", I'd have left in Acq and Smuggling, too. (Not Greed, though -- that's really an emotionally driven characteristic of a person, nurtured during development; not a skill to be learnt, IMO.) And also above-mentioned SEC and MED -- and Barbering, of course he can quickly assmilate that knowledge from a textbook and some LCARS videos. But I wanted to go with a more "who has Data already been to us" feel.
I think both approaches are valid. (I also think that we mostly see cards that go with "what have we seen?" than with hypothetical possibilities -- but there's prolly quite a number of exceptions to that rather generic rule, which might warrant a wider inclusion of Data's skillset within 1e... Still, I'm more of a fan of the former approach, myself.)

In fact, I think it may be a better idea to have the same single skill, but name those he CAN have... (But then we'd have to cut down a bit more, even, on the hypotheticals...)

Also -- while everybody's spilling their wonderful detailed ideas about these issues, I must admit that I think that Honour is a skill that has a lot of 'biological'/'human(e)' content -- i don't know how to say it. But same as Guramba and Greed, and possibly Acquisition (from my POV, where you really have to be able to empathise with the other person, in order to ascertain what they want -- and how to get what you want from them; not just good e-shopping skills*). Still, I do think that Data would qualify for the 'soft skill'(?), Honour. So it's not that black/white for me, either.

*But yes, he could read Gint's book (ROA), and operate according to those; you're right. He might even make a decent Ferengi... but... I don't know.

Treachery -- yes, he could lie, and cheat, if he had to. Still, it's not a skill I really see his cards necessarily having (at all).

And with Barbering, I did also think about that on episode with the kid -- Hero Worship? :cheersL: :thumbsup:
The fundamental problem with making this Data (aside from the lack of room for the special skill) and trying to avoid him being broken is in this form I don't know if he would truly be broken. In this case he'd be an Officer with one skill, the equivalent of a mission specialist who can't even use the text of ASM. In my opinion he might almost be considered useless, especially in an affiliation that has basically every single skill under the sun.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#486336
Because no-one else had crunched the numbers yet, the current number of personas for each option (not counting infiltrators, mirror versions, alt printings, etc - but *does* count dual personnel they're part of):

Picard - 12
Riker - 9
Data - 11
Geordi - 5
Worf - 11
Beverly - 5
Troi - 7
Yar - 1
Pulaski - 3
Wesley - 2
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Retired Moderator
#486337
Kira - STACK OVERFLOW ERROR
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#486349
AllenGould wrote:Because no-one else had crunched the numbers yet, the current number of personas for each option (not counting infiltrators, mirror versions, alt printings, etc - but *does* count dual personnel they're part of):

Picard - 12
Riker - 9
Data - 11
Geordi - 5
Worf - 11
Beverly - 5
Troi - 7
Yar - 1
Pulaski - 3
Wesley - 2
From that perspective, I would prefer to count AU versions before making a choice; to my mind, they do count enough for this topic. Still, it's clear that the bottom 3 stand out. And if it weren't for my beef with Data's lack of SCIENCE, I'd have gone with Wes.
 
By Slayer07
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#486379
SudenKapala wrote:
AllenGould wrote:Because no-one else had crunched the numbers yet, the current number of personas for each option (not counting infiltrators, mirror versions, alt printings, etc - but *does* count dual personnel they're part of):

Picard - 12
Riker - 9
Data - 11
Geordi - 5
Worf - 11
Beverly - 5
Troi - 7
Yar - 1
Pulaski - 3
Wesley - 2
From that perspective, I would prefer to count AU versions before making a choice; to my mind, they do count enough for this topic. Still, it's clear that the bottom 3 stand out. And if it weren't for my beef with Data's lack of SCIENCE, I'd have gone with Wes.
I can't explain Allengould's reasoning but to me I do not count [1E-AU] versions for one simple reason; they can be in play at the same time. I can have Jean-Luc Picard in play with Admiral Picard and if I cared to Lt. (j.g.) Picard along with Batteship Picard and AGT Picard (under the assumption they get made at some point) and have access to everything they can do at once.

What I cannot do is have Jean-Luc Picard, Jean-Luc and Galen (we'll forget his restriction box for this) in play at the same time to have access to everything they can do at once. That is why all of these would count as personas to my reasoning.
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