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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#492832
Hi everyone!

[DL] has seemed to cause some concern among players, most recently due to theRise of the Original Series.

I am not asking for finger pointing at specific cards, sets, eras, people, players, etc. People will always have different opinions, thoughts, and feelings on many things in STCCG 1E. I am trying to get objective & constructive feedback from players and not have it turn into something resulting a Klingon Barroom Brawl about this card or that set.

This is just one of many fact finding missions I am going to be doing so I can try and get a group together to focus on this issue IF there is indeed an issue and also to be able to advise design.

I am asking people to post their thoughts on the following:

What do [DL] mean to you when deck building?
What do [DL] mean to you during playing an opponent?
What great moments do you remember for using [DL] ?
What bad experiences do you have about [DL] ?
Any other thoughts do you have concerning [DL] ?

Here is the glossary entry on [DL] & Suspend Play for those who might need a refresher.
downloading – special download – A
card with a special download icon [DL]
allows you to suspend any action at any time
(even during your opponent’s turn) while
you download the specified target card and
immediately play it. If the card is played at
(or to affect something at, or to insert
adjacent to) one particular spaceline or
timeline location, the special download icon
must be at that location. (If it is not possible
to play the card according to these rules,
then the target card may not be
downloaded.) For example, Arandis may
download Jamaharon at any time to nullify a
Horga’hn (because that artifact is not
specific to any location), but may download
it to relocate a male to Risa only if she is at
his location. See suspends play.
When you use a special download icon to
download a hidden agenda card, you must
play that card to the table, then immediately
activate it and follow its game text (targeting
something at the location of the special
download icon if applicable).
A card with this icon allows a special
download only once per game, no matter
how many copies of that card you use during
the game. On a Personnel card, this icon is
defined as a special skill.
suspends play – A card which specifically
says it “suspends play” may be played at any
time during the play phase (even during your
opponent’s turn) and may interrupt and
temporarily suspend any action. Using a
special download icon also suspends play.
After the card play or special download has
resolved, the suspended action resumes.
See
downloading – special download,
actions – interrupting.
If no action is in progress, an action that may
suspend play (such as using a special
download icon) does not suspend anything.
You may not suspend play during the seed
phases.
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#492845
What do [DL] mean to you when deck building?
A hassle. The card is probably not good enough without the download in the deck OR I really need the card so I go look for a card that downloads it so that I can get it into the game without paying for it.
What do [DL] mean to you during playing an opponent?
Rules confusion. When can I use it again? WHere was the card with the [DL] now again. Or even worse, I've forgotten I had it in play and missed the opportunity to use it.
What great moments do you remember for using [DL] ?
Back in the days an opponent was on the way of winning by assimilating one of my ships for the last piece of points when I remembered the Data (First Contact) had a [DL] for Fractal Encryption Code. That was the only time I actually managed to use that card. That was fun!
What bad experiences do you have about [DL] ?
It's hard to teach. It's hard to remember them all. It's hard to build decks with them. They make most other personnel and ships without a [DL] obsolete or worse off.
Any other thoughts do you have concerning [DL] ?
Please change the meaning of the symbol to "when you play this card, you may look though oýour deck and side decks for named card and place it in your hand.Shuffle deck afterwards." This would take away most of the complexity and overpower it has.as well as slow down the game a little.
User avatar
 
By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#492846
From my own thoughts on the subject:

What do [DL] mean to you when deck building?
How to get the most out of turning the Q-Tent into a download side deck
What do [DL] mean to you during playing an opponent?
Be prepared for the fact that they will get to spend 10 to 20 seconds looking at a dilemma during a mission attempt and then finally decide what they are going to [DL] if they feel they can avoid or neutralize the dilemma.
What great moments do you remember for using [DL] ?
Nothing beats Devidian Door + Bashir Founder + [DL] of Supernova to take out a battle fleet
What bad experiences do you have about [DL] ?
To have put together a good dilemma combo that would of normally stopped or hindered an opponent for them to be able to see the dilemma and bug out and then still go back the same turn, reattempt with a different crew, and blow through the dilemmas.
Any other thoughts do you have concerning [DL] ?
I love [DL] and I feel that they do add a lot to the game but right now the ability that many use in speed solving decks that have a lot of nifty [DL] are to look at the dilemma and then craft a response out of it instead of being able to try and plan before the mission attempt and roll the dice like non- [DL] bug out/bug in decks.

Also [DL] were heavily involved in the arms race of getting tons of personnel and other cards out quickly in the first few turns of the game coupled with the fact that many of these cards had a rarity that made them harder to get than others. Since everything is printable now its not an issue for people to have all of these rare cards in a deck.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#492848
cant particularly answer the questions, because they seem weird to me :shrug: [DL] means special download to me at any time. (see rules)

but learning SDs, they were just totally confusing and i still believe the game has timing issues.
its completeley unintuitive that something named "interrupt" is slower than a download. especially since there are also other (slower)downloads in the game as well.
then it ignores quad restrictions for whatever reasons...

ingame wise SDs are just completely OP, since you can use them mid-dilemma to solve them. even now i dont understand why its possible, because to me its not a "play" action when a dilemma resolves and its not called "suspend game" makes zero sense and feels more like a misinterpretation of the rules. like why is solving missions still the "play phase" its just stupid.
feels bad, especially for newer player who dont know the targets

best thing about most of them, they allow for free reports and can be used on opponents turn to circumvent the 1-personnel dl per turn rule, which i also dont really like(the rule). mainly for time constraints (searching and shuffling your deck yet again)
Last edited by Ensign Q on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#492851
Smiley wrote:Please change the meaning of the symbol to "when you play this card, you may look though oýour deck and side decks for named card and place it in your hand.Shuffle deck afterwards." This would take away most of the complexity and overpower it has.as well as slow down the game a little.
I like this. I haven't thought through all of the repercussions of this idea, but I really like it.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#492852
JeBuS wrote:
Smiley wrote:Please change the meaning of the symbol to "when you play this card, you may look though oýour deck and side decks for named card and place it in your hand.Shuffle deck afterwards." This would take away most of the complexity and overpower it has.as well as slow down the game a little.
I like this. I haven't thought through all of the repercussions of this idea, but I really like it.
I'm old enough to remember why the download rule got changed to NOT allow all downloads to go to hand. Let's not make the mistake of undoing that (though with Q errata-ed it's not AS bad.)

I don't mind the idea of [DL] representing things "in your pocket" like Phasers, PADDs, etc. that you can pull out when needed, but I don't think they need to be accessible at Suspend Play speed. I think if you fix that a lot of the major problems go away.
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By sexecutioner (Niall Matthew)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E World Runner-Up 2023
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E British National Second Runner-Up 2023
#492896
Best moment: Needed to get onto my opponents ships and didn't have my Transporter Drone available at the time. So on the fly, I used Three of Nines special skill to place a card beneath my deck. Before I finished the action and drew my card, I used Third and Fourths [DL] to get Maturation Chamber and placed it on my opponents ship. I then completed Three of Nines action by using Maturation Chambers game text to download a drone to it in place of Three of Nines card draw.

THIS is why I love 1E. There's so much innovative, weird things to be discovered.

Worst thing: Can't think of any involving [DL] , I always applaud my opponent for on the ball, fast thinking strategies.
LuthySloan wrote:I like as options in the game, e.g. Mona Lisa, when someone destroys my ship.
It's a good one, I got Peter Ludvig with this once :D EDIT: He used Disruptor Overload to try and blow up a gun, but randomly selected Mona Lisa instead once it was downloaded.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#492897
sexecutioner wrote:
LuthySloan wrote:I like as options in the game, e.g. Mona Lisa, when someone destroys my ship.
It's a good one, I got Peter Ludvig with this once :D EDIT: He used Disruptor Overload to try and blow up a gun, but randomly selected Mona Lisa instead once it was downloaded.
Beautiful! Those are the really special moments which make 1E so unique!
 
By Winner of Borg (Stefan Slaby)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
1E European Continental Champion 2023
1E Austrian National Champion 2023
2E Austrian National Champion 2022
1E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
2E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
#492902
What do [DL] mean to you when deck building?
- ways to abort mission attempts without suffering anything worse than a stop. i like to attempt with big crews, but would never dare doing that without some kind of bug-out mechanism, in a game containing disproportionately punishing dilemmas like Denevan Neural Parasites, Chula: The Game, Cytherians, etc. this is extremely important to me, to the point where a faction needs to bring something extremely unique and rewarding (such as Distant Control) for me to even consider playing a deck that prevents me from e.g. splashing Kes via Devidian Door.
- generally more cards that can be downloaded, thus more interesting options for early-game setup and combining engines in new and interesting ways.
- extra personnel that can be downloaded during opponent's turn, adding a little to OTF's harsh limit of one personnel download per turn.
- the best reason to still bring referee cards: Containment Field.
- a way to fill spare Q's Tent slots with extra utility. just check what extra [DL]s your cards have, and add the ones that seem most useful.
What do [DL] mean to you during playing an opponent?
see above.
What great moments do you remember for using [DL] ?
using What Does God Need With a Starship? to download Goraxus where an opponent had a shuttle with lots of people, and instantly Romulan Ambushing it away.
What bad experiences do you have about [DL] ?
TOS opponents steamrolling skill-based dilemmas with downloads of personnel and multiple downloads of Classic Communicator.
Any other thoughts do you have concerning [DL] ?
in a hypothetical game where
- bug-out [DL]s aren't needed at all: i.o.w. a game with other *reliable* ways to avoid losing entire ships (something better than Federation Flagship: Recovered because that is too limiting and doesn't even recover cards played on the ship); to avoid losing too many personnel at once (e.g. a 2E-style Escape); and to avoid suffering lasting effects from dilemmas (e.g. a card that removes an opponents dilemma from on your Ship or Mission)
- personnel downloads are allowed twice per turn (instead of once)
i would happily see the [DL] mechanic changed to "when you play this card, you may download ...".
 
By Se7enofMine (ChadC)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#492990
Instead of answering the specific questions, just my overall thoughts.

I like [DL]. It can make for some great moments, for or against, depending on your perspective.

The problem currently is that [DL] disproportionately favors Federation (and its subsets). Either the [DL] needs to be scaled back for Fed or pumped for other affils.
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By PantsOfTheTalShiar (Jason Tang)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#498897
What do [DL] mean to you when deck building?
It was a major component of one of my first decks, my Cardassian deck. It felt like I was attacking the game from a different angle than just spamming personnel out. Instead, a lot of my personnel were 2-for-1s (really 1.x-for-1s, since usually either the downloader or the downloadee is not worth a full card). It felt like I had a toolbox at my disposal.

What do [DL] mean to you during playing an opponent?
It's a capability of my opponent's cards sometimes, and I need to consider all of my opponent's capabilities when deciding what risks I need to be taking at game time.

What great moments do you remember for using [DL] ?
Most of them involve using Bareil or Mila to download Ablative Armor, Plasmadyne Relay, or Transport Inhibitor as a defensive measure. They also have been used to get various attribute-pumping equipment to pass dilemmas.

What bad experiences do you have about [DL] ?
Most of them involve Design slapping the icon on cards without considering the implications. For example:
- Revised Kim can suspend play to download Reflection Therapy onto himself, even though Suna and Reflection Therapy and were specifically designed to NOT be able to do that.
- Four of Fifty can special download Establish Tractor Lock, because in order to nerf Post Garrison, they had to nerf A Change of Plans instead.
- Lt. Commander Giotto can download Classic Communicator because there's a real nice shot of him using a communicator.

Any other thoughts do you have concerning [DL] ?
I love "suspends play" actions because they can respond to anything. This gives players opportunities to discover new interactions and be creative. A card that says "Plays at start of ship battle" will only ever play at the start of a ship battle. There is nothing to discover. But if a card can suspend play to boost your ship's SHIELDS, then who knows when that might be useful? Ship battle, of course, but perhaps there are some Dilemmas that care about SHIELDS? Maybe some Interrupts, too?

Now Magic: The Gathering famously has the ability for things to respond to anything. Not everything can respond to anything, but some things can respond to anything. And the game is better for it. Magic once had a series of introductory products called Portal that removed this feature from the game in the name of simplifying it, but they don't try to teach Magic that way anymore.

A lot of episodes of Trek involve our heroes coming up with a solution in the nick of time. "Suspends play" brings those moment like that to the game.

Now, there are reforms that I would be fine with, as long as [DL] retains the ability to respond to anything. (These are just ideas that come with no warranty.)

- Defining "suspends play" as "valid response or 'just' response to any action" This would have little to no effect on gameplay, since actions are made up of subactions, but it might help to have everything interpreted through the model of initiation-responses-resolution.

- Requiring Personnel and Equipment to report where they are present with the card that special downloads it, and not just the same location. This is both better Trek Sense and requires players to commit downloaders to the mission attempt if they want the downloadee in the attempt. Sorry to anyone who likes special downloading personnel aboard their opponent's ships, though.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#499058
Instead of using personal downloads all the time, use situational counter and counter-counter. e.g. if you are attacked download Weak Spot. // download rescue captives, if you are at the location of one of your personel held captive at this location. // download amanda rogers, if you opponent just played an [Int] to get points here. [DL] vs [DL] mind games
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