[AllenGould]

[quote="JeBuS"
Since these scenarios are all outside the tournament format, it really doesn't matter, does it? If you're playing an unsanctioned format, you can set the victory conditions to whatever the players agree to.[/quote]

It does from a game design lens, because it means you can end up in a state where the game didn't end, it just waits for a player to get bored and leave. (Or, in my example, for you to quit and let me get victory).

I'm looking through various other game rules to see if I can find other CCGs that don't have "no deck you die" as their rule, and while I've by no means exhausted every rulebook I have, the early trend seems to be that (with two exceptions I've found thus far) the rule is either
(a) decking out kills you outright or (b) you just recycle the deck and there's a different inevitability mechanic at work.

(One exception is B5, where drawing against an empty deck kills your characters and eventually you once you run out of those you lose, so empty deck is still bad but you get a last stand to win before you self-destruct. The other is Netrunner when playing Runner. They don't die with an empty deck, but instead if they need to discard a card for damage and have an empty hand. Which again means that an empty deck puts you on a short timer.)

[JeBuS]

Through a design lens, it is bad to punish the player for playing the game efficiently.

[BCSWowbagger]

As an incidental note, very few card draws are mandatory. If you are close to decking out, you can usually avoid it by dropping down to just 1 card draw per turn. I've done this regularly to good effect.

Mark Rosewater says that every good game has to have something that ensures the game will eventually end. It's probably fair to start from the assumption that Mark Rosewater's position will be shared by most 1E staff, because Rosewater is so widely respected. (He's probably written somewhere about why it's necessary, too, although heck if I know where.)

To players who don't like the double deck-out rule: assuming for the sake of discussion that the game does need an "inevitability" condition, do you have any ideas about what a good replacement for the double-deck-out rule might be, if you got your way and the double deck-out rule went away?

(Interesting note: As Allen points out, any troll can stock 3 Regenerates in his deck and keep the game cycling forever. So, technically, 1E does not currently have an inevitability condition. But the double-deck-out rule, combined with the mandatory EOT draw, gets pretty close.)

[SudenKapala]

I'm am sorry to hear you've had a series of frustrating games!

Agreed.

To be clear, you're saying you had no deck and no discard pile left? And both you and your opponent had empty decks?

exactly. empty discard and empty deck. Sexec also likes to play weird stall cards to drag the endgame into losses due to card out.

What I find important here: does Sexec agree they were bad games, because of that rule? If both players agree that certain rules aspects are faulty, there may perhaps be a point to your complaint. Otherwise, one player is just the better player and/or deck builder, IMO.
(I have an even longer losing streak against one of my comrades -- he's just better at everything. That doesn't mean it's the game's fault. And we keep playing, because we enjoy the game anyway; and there are times that I almost beat him to it. One day... )
Accept that Sex -- a veteran -- is the "better man" for now; learn from his game, and improve yours and your deckbuilding, is my idea about this.

decking out is a much more natural and elegant end-of-game condition then timing out. decking out is based on mechanics and timing out boils down to stalling and player behavior.

Agreed.

Games need something to propel them towards an ending. Some kind of "ticking clock" that means that no matter what happens in the game, it will end. (...) Otherwise, you can end up in situations where the game can't progress or end.

Agreed.

orr maybe it's time for design to SLOW DOWN. people have been complaining about that for years. this is yet another reason for it.

Agreed.

And I actually enjoy the changing conditions, the clock that 'suddenly' starts ticking, which forces players to start taking more -- or less -- risks and change their strategy. It makes for a certain dynamic in the evening's atmosphere.

[sexecutioner]

Sex here.

I'm sorry you've found it frustrating in our games regarding the deck outs.

For all of you that have played me in multiple occasions, you all should guess that I always aim for 30-40 cards in my deck. I like it slim. I always cut the fluff from my decks and have only the bare essentials, plus ways to get a defensive card or two out. Recently, my deck style has changed a lot from before (I'm going through an Emo New Arrivals phase) I can't remember the last time I had so much fun building decks. I also like a bit of interference, hence the 'stalling' cards that Q mentioned.

I will say about our game last night: That first planet Dilemma combo I encountered slowed me down for a few turns. I applaud the way you got to my ship and blew it up. It was out of nowhere and it was beautiful. But by the time you built up all the cards you needed to go for missions, I was going through my deck like crazy, and had stocked enough of my interference cards to go to town.

Take risks, be more aggressive when it comes to attempting missions.

If you see an opponent who also has a slim deck, it is essential that you start early to get those points in before them for when the deckout happens.

EXTRA TIBBIT: Last month, MVB finished our game via deck out by playing a Kivas Fajo: Collector on ME!

My name is Sexecutioner and I play slim decks and prepare for deckout situations.

[sexecutioner]

Sexec also likes to play weird stall cards to drag the endgame into losses due to card out.

If I end up facing a TOS Fed super solver, I ain't out-solving them. I need all the help I can get to slow those assholes down.

[Ensign Q]

If I blow up my cardcount I take longer to collect all the essential cards, so I might lose to solving missions.
Again, there is zero draw manipulation in the game, besides mutations,so you cant filter through fluff either.
There is a huuuuge gap when it comes to "card game" effects.


And my solution to double deck out would be a draw.

[sexecutioner]

I'd rather deck out than face that fucking monstrosity 300+ card deck from Bunz that I had to endure against at Worlds 2013.

EnsignQ, are you Bunz in disguise? And you're just trying out slim decks for a change?

[Ensign Q]

yeah i might go for the 400 card borg monster with a million awakens

[Armus]

yeah i might go for the 400 card borg monster with a million awakens

That's a solid deck. Even better in Open where you can drop a fistful of them and go to town.

[Discovery rox]

If I blow up my cardcount I take longer to collect all the essential cards, so I might lose to solving missions.

this is called tension. its a choice. swing one way and you have super slim decks that get everything you need super fast but you can be decked out. swing the other way and you are resistant to decking out but its harder to get what you need.

its actually two tensions in one. swing one way and you dont have a lot of tools but you can use those tools immediately. swing the other way and you have a whole bunch of tools which means you can do a whole bunch more things, it just takes longer to get the specific tool you want.

all good games are built on tensions. generally the more tensions (or even multitensions) there are, the more strategic and interesting the game is.

[Ensign Q]

I dont mind tensions if there are sane ways to prepare for them.

[Armus]

I dont mind tensions if there are sane ways to prepare for them.

Try a 60-70 card balanced solver.

You're comparing a 30 card deck to a 400 card deck.

There's in- between options that don't suck.

[Ensign Q]

Borg either need an empty deck to manipulate probes or a million awakens. There is no real middle ground.

[AllenGould]

Borg either need an empty deck to manipulate probes or a million awakens. There is no real middle ground.

Or play TNG Borg that doesn't probe, or my favored solution - assimilate all your opponent's stuff, and then you can take as long as you need to probe!