This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Trailblazer
#509720
Welcome to today's First Edition Friday Question, where you get a chance to answer questions that will help shape the future of First Edition. If you'd like to catch up on previous entries, here's a list of all of my previous Friday Questions:

17 APR 2020: What do you want to know about how we work?
10 APR 2020: Should we make animated series cards?
3 APR 2020: Should we make more Tribbles/Troubles?
27 MAR 2020: Should we develop new [Q] cards?
20 MAR 2020: What regions should we focus on in the future?
13 MAR 2020: How would you feel about 1E adding extra "bits"?
6 MAR 2020: What are your favorite "almost good" S/P dilemmas?
28 FEB 2020: What are your favorite decks to play?
21 FEB 2020: Which Decipher expansion most deserves a sequel?
14 FEB 2020: Which "broken link" should be fixed first?
7 FEB 2020: What's your favorite episode of Star Trek?
31 JAN 2020: Which TOS main character needs a new card?
24 JAN 2020: What should qualify a card for the "watch list"?
17 JAN 2020: What card would you unban without changes?
10 JAN 2020: What single card would you ban to improve your game?
3 JAN 2020: What are you looking forward to in The Neutral Zone?
27 DEC 2019: How can we help you recruit new players?
20 DEC 2019: Where do you want the game to be in five years?
13 DEC 2019: Which concepts should 1E "import" from other games?
6 DEC 2019: Which couples should get a dual personnel card?
29 NOV 2019: Which old, unused 1E cards deserve some love?
22 NOV 2019: Which upcoming milestones need celebration?
15 NOV 2019: What's your favorite card image?
11 NOV 2019: What was your first 1E experience?
1 NOV 2019 What is your opinion of the "full page" policy?
25 OCT 2019: What do you want to see in a Halloween set?
18 OCT 2019: What is your favorite expansion?
11 OCT 2019: Which TNG main character needs a new card?
4 OCT 2019: Which Star Trek story needs more cards?
27 SEP 2019: How many points should [SPOILER] be worth?
20 SEP 2019: Which rules always confuse you?
13 SEP 2019: What do you think of [SPOILER]?
6 SEP 2019: Which card needs an alternate image (AI)?
30 AUG 2019: Which characteristic needs love?


Hello everyone! Please pardon my tardiness with this week's question, as I've been laid up most of the day with a migraine. I'm feeling better now, so I figured a late question is better than no question at all. Today, I want to talk about the dilemmas with the Botany Bay icon, introduce in 2017's Cold Front. These dilemmas feature a new loaded icon that has special rules that trigger when they are examined. Here's the quote from the Glossary about this mechanic:
A card with the [BB] icon represents an unpleasant surprise for players who try to uncover what is better left buried. If a player examines a card with the [BB] icon any time other than during a mission or scouting attempt, place it on the mission where it was seeded. That player may not attempt or scout this mission until another mission has been completed or scouted by either player, then re-seed the dilemma at the same mission. If multiple dilemmas are to be simultaneously re-seeded in this way, re-seed them so that they are encountered in the original order.
How often has the anti-examine power triggered on your [BB] dilemmas?

Since there release, a few of these dilemmas (like Faux Pas and The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey) have become tournament staples. We're curious if that's because of their difficulty, or because they are working as effective anti-scouting weapons. Do your opponent's trigger the [BB] text often? Have they ever?

Help us figure this out by telling us stories of games in which this has happened. And let us know in what percentage of your games you've had this text trigger. Or, perhaps, it's something you never remember and thus it's never triggered - or it should have, but didn't. All of this is valuable information for us, and we want your input.

This Sunday, I'll be live on YouTube for another Quarantine Office Hours stream, and I'll be giving away the contents of a pack of The Dominion. I hope to see you there!

-crp
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European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
Specialist
2E Austrian National Runner-Up 2020
#509745
Very often when those dilemmas were released, recently during a test match when I've used my androids. Honestly I was quite happy about it, because it allowed me to see the second dilemma next turn.

Actually, only the existence of those dilemmas made androids (or Borg) with Ocular Implants not an auto-include into any deck, some of them are really good like Cyrus, some of them are really useless...
 
By Spectre9
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#509758
Clerasil ToB wrote:Very often when those dilemmas were released, recently during a test match when I've used my androids. Honestly I was quite happy about it, because it allowed me to see the second dilemma next turn.

Actually, only the existence of those dilemmas made androids (or Borg) with Ocular Implants not an auto-include into any deck, some of them are really good like Cyrus, some of them are really useless...
Yeah that's a good point. Is it an advantage or disadvantage to drag the dilemma out from being seeded? Every card that allows a peek is just going to allow you another peek without even having to attempt.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
President
Community Contributor
#509761
It has happened two or three times in my experience. I think I remembered to do it once, my opponent remembered once, and nobody remembered once. Or something close to that.

They're all quite strong dilemmas (except MAYBE Miner Disagreement) in their own right, so they aren't getting stocked for the icon specifically, at least not in my decks. And they don't show up enough to scare me off of the occasional Preparation.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2019
#509765
MidnightLich wrote:
How often has the anti-examine power triggered on your [BB] dilemmas?
I do not know, but more than I have fingers on my hand.
MidnightLich wrote: Since there release, a few of these dilemmas (like Faux Pas and The Ghost of Cyrus Ramsey) have become tournament staples. We're curious if that's because of their difficulty, or because they are working as effective anti-scouting weapons. Do your opponent's trigger the [BB] text often? Have they ever?
Like I said above - often.
I think they are used just becaus they are good; not because they are [BB].
MidnightLich wrote: Help us figure this out by telling us stories of games in which this has happened. And let us know in what percentage of your games you've had this text trigger. Or, perhaps, it's something you never remember and thus it's never triggered - or it should have, but didn't. All of this is valuable information for us, and we want your input.
I remember when I played the [BB] first time after release. I made a Combo of 2 [BB] and a normal Dilemma. One of our players spotted the first [BB], so he went to another mission, but was there stopped. Next turn he scanned the next [BB] on the first mission. Something I did not expected to happen when building the Stack. In the same turn he restarted the missionattempt on the other mission. The next turn he scanned the last Dilemma on my first Mission and he has seen now all he need to complete it. So he completed the second mission, and managed to put all together to solfe the first mission in the same turn. So, instead of scanning 1 Dilemma, he was able to scan the whole Stack. Sure it was my fault, because I thought [BB] are good...

In my opinion the Rule must be changed. To place the [BB] ON the mission allows the opponent to look at the next Dilemma. That is why I always seed them now LAST in my stack. Since I have begun to seed them last, if I remember right, they were never more revealed out of a mission attempt. So it clearly missed the goal. If it would be placed UNDER the mission, it would fulfill its goal, but that way.... Or change the rules, that no-one can look at the next dilemme under that mission, when a [BB] Dilemma is placed on the Mission.
Same is for the Edo probe. The original rule was to put it back UNDER the mission and when you encounter it again, after someone solved a different Mission, put it asaide. That Rule was changed with the new [BB] rule.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
President
Community Contributor
#509807
Enabran wrote:.
Same is for the Edo probe. The original rule was to put it back UNDER the mission and when you encounter it again, after someone solved a different Mission, put it asaide. That Rule was changed with the new [BB] rule.
Bit more weird than that. Decipher changed the rule in 2001 -- because, frankly, the original rule didn't make a lot of sense. A card that has a lasting effect on the game without being in play? Glossary 1.8 in 2002 said Edo Probe now goes on the mission.

But Decipher was not great at communicating rule changes, especially not in the final years of 1e. Many players were unaware of it.

Years later, around the same time as [BB] came out, there was a conversation (I think about the new icon and how it related to Edo Probe) in the FYI forum. Someone complained that BB didn't work the same as the Edo Probe, for just the reason you mention, and quoted the DRG, which hadn't been updated since 1999 -- before Decipher changed the rule. Someone else said, no, BB does follow the same rule, the DRG is out of date, and quoted the Glossary.

A brouhaha ensued, because it turned out that some members of the Rules Committee itself were not aware of the Decipher rule change and wanted to revert it. So a temporary "bluetext" ruling was issued to make Edo Probe work the way it had worked pre-2001 and Errata was assigned the job of fixing it.

Errata worked hard on this. We saw some extremely clever iterations of Edo Probe over the next 15 months or so. Unfortunately, all had rule problems. Rules eventually gave up trying to "fix" Decipher's rule and rescinded the blue text.

So Edo Probe has gone on the mission for 19 years. But many players did not realize this until about 4 years ago, and the rule was suspended for 2 of those years. It didn't have much of anything to do with the [BB] icon coming out, and was more about the unworkability of the original rule.
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First Edition Balance Manager
By JasonRed3 (Jason Robinette)
 - First Edition Balance Manager
 -  
#509864
Ensign Q wrote:how does it work as anti examine? if anything it lets you see another dilemma.

well i dont think anyone is aware of this obscure rule and i vote to remove it altogether.
Oh, we're voting on rules changes now? I had no idea!
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First Edition Balance Manager
By JasonRed3 (Jason Robinette)
 - First Edition Balance Manager
 -  
#509865
Ensign Q wrote:Is examined a keyword? Does it mean revealed? Ive never heared of it. Does it also trigger on mission attempts? I didnt knew this icon was a thing.
It's never too early to learn something new...

https://www.trekcc.org/1e/expansions/br ... kenBow.pdf

Check it out!
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