This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.

When should a ban become effetive?

Immediately
21
68%
After 1 Week
6
19%
After 2 Weeks
1
3%
After 4 Weeks
2
6%
Other
1
3%
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Trailblazer
#512610
Welcome to today's First Edition Friday Question, where you get a chance to answer questions that will help shape the future of First Edition. If you'd like to catch up on previous entries, here's a list of all of my previous Friday Questions:

8 MAY 2020 Which episode should inspire a boutique expansion?
1 MAY 2020: What was the best Star Trek gift you ever received?
24 APR 2020: How often do your [BB] dilemmas get scouted?
17 APR 2020: What do you want to know about how we work?
10 APR 2020: Should we make animated series cards?
3 APR 2020: Should we make more Tribbles/Troubles?
27 MAR 2020: Should we develop new [Q] cards?
20 MAR 2020: What regions should we focus on in the future?
13 MAR 2020: How would you feel about 1E adding extra "bits"?
6 MAR 2020: What are your favorite "almost good" S/P dilemmas?
28 FEB 2020: What are your favorite decks to play?
21 FEB 2020: Which Decipher expansion most deserves a sequel?
14 FEB 2020: Which "broken link" should be fixed first?
7 FEB 2020: What's your favorite episode of Star Trek?
31 JAN 2020: Which TOS main character needs a new card?
24 JAN 2020: What should qualify a card for the "watch list"?
17 JAN 2020: What card would you unban without changes?
10 JAN 2020: What single card would you ban to improve your game?
3 JAN 2020: What are you looking forward to in The Neutral Zone?
27 DEC 2019: How can we help you recruit new players?
20 DEC 2019: Where do you want the game to be in five years?
13 DEC 2019: Which concepts should 1E "import" from other games?
6 DEC 2019: Which couples should get a dual personnel card?
29 NOV 2019: Which old, unused 1E cards deserve some love?
22 NOV 2019: Which upcoming milestones need celebration?
15 NOV 2019: What's your favorite card image?
11 NOV 2019: What was your first 1E experience?
1 NOV 2019 What is your opinion of the "full page" policy?
25 OCT 2019: What do you want to see in a Halloween set?
18 OCT 2019: What is your favorite expansion?
11 OCT 2019: Which TNG main character needs a new card?
4 OCT 2019: Which Star Trek story needs more cards?
27 SEP 2019: How many points should [SPOILER] be worth?
20 SEP 2019: Which rules always confuse you?
13 SEP 2019: What do you think of [SPOILER]?
6 SEP 2019: Which card needs an alternate image (AI)?
30 AUG 2019: Which characteristic needs love?


Happy Friday all. Today's question is going to be "ripped out of the headlines," so to speak. There's been a lot of discussion about deck lists recently, and as part of that discussion, the topic of bans and when they come into effect came up. So I figured this would be a good chance to see what people think about how bans work.

Should additions to the OTF ban list become effective immediately?

First of all, let's set a ground rule, so we're all operating from the same page. Please assume, for the purposes of this question and this discussion, that the OTF ban list is a vital and necessary part of the game's health. And, as part of that health, there will be additions to the ban list. Take these as fact, so that we can discuss the timing of the bans taking effect.

Here's what happens now: the first Monday of each month is the standard day that we announce Errata, Rules changes, and changes to the Ban and Watch lists. (The next such day is June 1st.) As things stand now, all of these changes are effective immediately - except for tournaments in progress, like online tournaments. On very rare, game-breaking occasions, we can issue an emergency ban at any time - but this has only happened a very small number of times.

This means that, if a player has been working on a deck that includes a just banned card, their deck would now be illegal for a tournament that weekend. Now, we do try to be mindful of major event schedules when taking these actions. It's pretty rare for big changes to happen the month of Worlds, or event Continentals. But if there is a problem, it needs to be fixed, and it is possible.

One proposal that came up recently was to announce bans, and have them come into effect at a later date. This isn't something that had ever occurred to me, and I have my own opinions on the matter, but this isn't about my opinion - it's about yours. When do you think an announced ban should take effect? Immediately? 1 Week later? 2 Weeks? The next First Monday? Please vote in the poll in this thread, and sound off with your thoughts. I'm eager to see where public opinion lands.

In the mean time, keep safe and sane. I could use a temporal agent like Daniels to help me remember what day it is, because I keep losing track.

-crp
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First Edition Balance Manager
By JasonRed3 (Jason Robinette)
 - First Edition Balance Manager
 -  
#512628
JeBuS wrote:My opinion is that if the decision has been made that there's enough data to warrant a ban, then it should take effect immediately.
Since it would have been sitting on the watch list for at least a month, that's plenty of time.
User avatar
 
By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#512666
So I waffled on my answer because of the following:

1) If the card being banned is already on the Watch List, then once banned it should immediately go into effect. If you have constructed your deck including Watch List cards, you are either oblivious to the List or you are hoping to take advantage of those cards one last time. Either way it was at your own risk.

2) On the other hand, if the banned card comes totally out-of-the-blue, then I think 1 week is fair to give folks time to adjust decks before going into a tournament.

Final Answer was immediately as I think the first scenario occurs way more often than the second.
User avatar
 
By Mogor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Contender
#512669
I think it depends on where the first of the month is in relation to the weekend. If its on a Thursday or Friday night. I would argue for a week, that way folks are bushwhacked with a tournament the next day that they aren't able to have a legal deck for. So I'm a situtational yes to both immediate and one week delay. As if you consider being on the watch list enough to be a warning not to rely on that card, then we likely should rename the watch list to soft ban list
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
#512670
Mogor wrote:I think it depends on where the first of the month is in relation to the weekend. If its on a Thursday or Friday night. I would argue for a week, that way folks are bushwhacked with a tournament the next day that they aren't able to have a legal deck for. So I'm a situtational yes to both immediate and one week delay. As if you consider being on the watch list enough to be a warning not to rely on that card, then we likely should rename the watch list to soft ban list
It happens on the first Monday right now.
User avatar
 
By Latok
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2019
2E World Top 16 2019
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#512721
Keiimaster wrote:So I waffled on my answer because of the following:

1) If the card being banned is already on the Watch List, then once banned it should immediately go into effect. If you have constructed your deck including Watch List cards, you are either oblivious to the List or you are hoping to take advantage of those cards one last time. Either way it was at your own risk.

2) On the other hand, if the banned card comes totally out-of-the-blue, then I think 1 week is fair to give folks time to adjust decks before going into a tournament.

Final Answer was immediately as I think the first scenario occurs way more often than the second.
However the second scenario implies the card is so egregiously broken that there's be no point playing 1E with it around since you'll either play the broken thing or just lose. That's the scenario where immediate is most important.
User avatar
 
By Latok
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2019
2E World Top 16 2019
1E Australian Continental Champion 2019
2E Australian Continental Runner-Up 2019
#512723
The only argument that's been put forward for bans not being effective immediately is about not having time to build a new deck. If you're going to use a card on the watchlist that's it's purpose, a warning, have a backup plan.

If you're going to play a broken card/combo and it gets banned bypassing the watchlist.

Image
User avatar
 
By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#512733
thank you charlie, i feel myselve heared. :)

the majority will decide the vote, i can life with it if its still immediatly, even thought its a big inconvinience for me. but life it not about getting what one wants all the time ;)

i also like to point out for errata the same thing could applie as well, some of them are tiny adjustments, others are bigger once.

I think i made my points. bans/errata rather with time to adapt. no deck publishing or at least not immediatly after the tournament before other major events. Errata for bigger side decks (triple abount of q´s tent, q´s tent: civil war, dyson etc.). And that i consider that rant not okay, it only creates discord. So i critizesed the rant starter and give him consequences and ignore all the side-conflictes that where created against me. have no more needs to do that at the moment. I choose maybe not to react to all of this. Because i love and respect myselve and forgive myselfe, if i was provoced by one of the others, i let got for the moment. If some others don´t like me its their problem. I hope their will be no new message board shit storms, but maybe thats just part of internetlife, time will tell how i will react when a new one happens againsts me or others.

Have a good day and spend time in good company :)
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
Grand Nagus
2E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2020
2E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2020
#512735
JasonRed3 wrote:
JeBuS wrote:My opinion is that if the decision has been made that there's enough data to warrant a ban, then it should take effect immediately.
Since it would have been sitting on the watch list for at least a month, that's plenty of time.
This.
User avatar
 
By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#512739
Cards should not have to sit on the watch list for a month to be banned IMO. If a card is broken and you see it after a it's released the tool should be effective enough to be able to be used more swiftly.
User avatar
 
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#512744
Smiley wrote:Cards should not have to sit on the watch list for a month to be banned IMO. If a card is broken and you see it after a it's released the tool should be effective enough to be able to be used more swiftly.
Counterpoint: the point of the watch list is to get the card played and prove out whether there's actually an issue or if it's an isolated meta thing. If there's no runway for the card to get played, then a watchlist is effectively a ban (who's gonna run a card that could get banned at any moment?), which means we don't get the data on whether it's actually a problem.
User avatar
 
By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#512793
Ok, most games happens on weekends right? Let's say that the bans can only happen on a Monday. That will give people that want to play the broken things do that and the next week it's gone?

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