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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548695
In order to soften the banlist, is a restricted list an option? meaning cards would be allowed only once instead of gone from the game.
looking at all those sweet interrupts there.
Last edited by Ensign Q on Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
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#548710
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:34 am In order to soften the banlist, is a restricted list an opion? meaning cards would be allowed only once instead of gone from the game.
looking at all those sweet interrupts there.
They could print the dreaded cost of "Once per game, " on existing cards. Honestly I would just as soon the card stayed banned.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Moderator
#548725
The problem with a Restricted List is that those tend to increase variance too much and make games turn on "who draws more one-of cards" (or "who draws their one-of card first").
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548726
nobthehobbit wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:20 am The problem with a Restricted List is that those tend to increase variance too much and make games turn on "who draws more one-of cards" (or "who draws their one-of card first").

to which cards would that apply? https://www.trekcc.org/1e/print_banlist.php

which one is problematic as a single interaction? they can stay banned.
most of them arent i think. (especially the intterupts)
Last edited by Ensign Q on Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548727
geraldkw wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:15 am
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:34 am In order to soften the banlist, is a restricted list an opion? meaning cards would be allowed only once instead of gone from the game.
looking at all those sweet interrupts there.
They could print the dreaded cost of "Once per game, " on existing cards. Honestly I would just as soon the card stayed banned.
i think it takes the cc more time to change cards than to curate a restricted list, hence my idea.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Moderator
#548736
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:31 am
nobthehobbit wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:20 am The problem with a Restricted List is that those tend to increase variance too much and make games turn on "who draws more one-of cards" (or "who draws their one-of card first").

to which cards would that apply? https://www.trekcc.org/1e/print_banlist.php

which one is problematic as a single interaction? they can stay banned.
most of them arent i think. (especially the intterupts)
What I know is that the company that makes the game that's arguably had more experience than any other with these sorts of things, Wizards of the Coast making Magic: the Gathering, has found from long experience that restricted lists only serve to increase variance. Some variance in game outcomes is desirable (a top player generally has a win rate of about 60% of their games) but too much variance, determined by "who gets their restricted card first" makes the game unfun because it reduces too far the role that skill plays.

(And before you say "but Vintage", they accept the variance of a restricted list in Vintage in the interests of letting people use almost every card that they've made, and from what I hear from people who play lots of Vintage, the format is actually decently balanced because of the sheer volume and power of the restricted cards.)
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#548739
nobthehobbit wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:59 am (And before you say "but Vintage", they accept the variance of a restricted list in Vintage in the interests of letting people use almost every card that they've made, and from what I hear from people who play lots of Vintage, the format is actually decently balanced because of the sheer volume and power of the restricted cards.)
Also, folks need to remember that "balanced" is relative to the format - the target number of turns for Standard is somewhere in the 5-8 turn range. The target for Legacy is 2-3. The joke for Vintage is that a good deck wins on turn 0.

Vintage is balanced, but only because you only play Vintage if you're stocking those expensive and powerful cards. It's showing up to the paintball game with a water bomber. ;)
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#548743
i dont think comparing magic to 1e does help us in that regard, because magic is a ressource based game and most cards on the restricted list give you crazy acceleration. closest thing we have is ams, which is not banned.
there are certainly a few bombs on the list that are somewhat comparable

like Access Archives (duh)

better example: Genetronic Replicator

getting it in play severly alters how the match is played.

meanwhile a single surak or palor toff hardly accelerate the game too much?
at this point we should leave behind how decipher handled the game i think, they didnt do a really good job.
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#548855
One thing no one has mentioned here (unless I missed a post) is that even one copy of a card means it can see play with virtual certainty in this game because of Q's Tent.

Sure, you can "tutor" for a card in Magic but recent "tutor" cards are generally expensive to cast(at least expensive enough to disrupt the tempo that top tier decks must maintain to be competitive) and often restricted as to which cards they can retrieve from the deck(failing that you still only get 4 in a 60 card deck).

Q's tent is a direct route to any card in the game you can play any number of that costs only a card draw which isn't much for most popular decks to get a crucial card.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548865
qs tent comes with a very high cost:

cant play civil war, which likely means only like 2 refcards

and no draws for the rest of the turn, which adds up to like 3 lost draws on average

only tng borg really still runs tutor tents.

if anything that cancels out the "first who draws it wins" argument

id still argue that most 1e bans are there because they are problematic in massive multiples. (hexany)
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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548867
Ensign Q wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:15 am qs tent comes with a very high cost:

cant play civil war, which likely means only like 2 refcards

and no draws for the rest of the turn, which adds up to like 3 lost draws on average

only tng borg really still runs tutor tents.

if anything that cancels out the "first who draws it wins" argument

id still argue that most 1e bans are there because they are problematic in massive multiples. (hexany)
I semi-regularly run Q's Tents in my draw decks. Most often it's for backup or situational cards, but if we had a restricted list where overly powerful cards were allowed 1/deck, I would definitely use Q's Tent for this.

The key to using Q's Tent in your deck is shifting your draws away from end of turn to other times during your turn (prior to using the Q's Tent). Using cards like Study Divergent History, Holoprogram: Cafe des Artistes, and Process Ore: Mining are all good cards for decks that want to use Q's Tent.

- James M
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#548868
ok this leads nowhere i guess.
we would need to discuss each card one by one i feel.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Moderator
#548870
Also the Civil War Tent doesn't mean you can't have a tutor Tent, you just have to get creative about it.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#549395
Regarding consensus there's something to be said about the blanket bans/restrictions found in Standard and Revised formats, with the rule of four and Interrupt removal in the latter. Tenderize in large swaths. No mercy.

Personally I do like how OTF has mostly managed to dodge restricted lists (if the dilemma seed limit counts); hopefully individual card fixes can continue to smooth things out.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549401
Data's Socks wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:04 am

Personally I do like how OTF has mostly managed to dodge restricted lists (if the dilemma seed limit counts); hopefully individual card fixes can continue to smooth things out.
I think so too. I´d like to point out to some cards that encourage having them very often and maybe they should be fixed. (bann if nessesary then erratum)

Life´s Simple Peasures. A deck full of them would work because its both a draw engine and a download just any female. Making the female download once per game would be enought and discourages using it each turn.

Assign Mission Specialists. Again a card with a download target list of A LOT of possible targets. Making different variants of AMS would work. One that give point bonus but no download option and one given the download option but no points. or limit the mission specialist downloads to the same affiliation during the entire game.

Beyond the Subatomic... someone brought back the main motor of hexany... trice per game would be enought to let the card be usefull but not encourage to spam it in a deck.
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