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Shipping Manager
By SirDan (Dan Hamman)
 - Shipping Manager
 -  
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
#549221
Happy Friday from the Balance Team!

This week I'm posting the Friday question, and it is about something the Balance Team often thinks about, the Ref mechanic.

In general, a lot of cards that are targeted by Ref cards are banned. And if those banned cards get errata and come back in a "safer" revision, the ref cards targeting them tend to get errata'd as well. Over time, the idea is that the need for a Ref Side Deck gets less and less as those trouble cards come off the ban list. And eventually maybe Ref cards are only needed to counter edge strategies that your specific deck can't handle.

From anecdotal evidence, I've personally seen a trend away from Ref decks when we are playing themed local "fun" tournaments, with maybe half the field not bothering to use a seed slot for it. And for some, I'd expect to see that trend continue even as we get into things like Regionals and other more competitive play. After all, if many people in a play group constantly rock a Ref deck, what's the point of bringing something that will get smacked around in at least half the games? So therefore I don't need to spend a seed slot on a ref deck...

That said, our play group is small, and doesn't often see teir-1 uber-competitive, Ref-card-counterable strategies on a given week. Online play is a different beast altogether, and every local group is different. So what do you see? What do you play?

Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent?
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events?
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back?
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets?


The Balance Team (and all the folks on the 1E development side, really) would love to hear your thoughts.

I'm looking forward to reading responses from online players, championship level players, kitchen table gamers... everyone. Thanks and have a great week!
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North American OP Coordinator
By The Ninja Scot (Michael Van Breemen)
 - North American OP Coordinator
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E World Champion 2023
Tribbles World Champion 2022
The Traveler
1E North American Continental Champion 2023
2E North American Continental Champion 2023
  Trek Masters 1E Champion 2024
1E American National Champion 2023
1E Canadian National Champion 2023
2E Canadian National Champion 2023
2E  National Runner-Up 2023
2E American National Second Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
2E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#549228
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent? - No
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events? - I probably should but again, not always.
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back? - I always like more seed slots.
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets? I usually regret it when I don't have Ref cards when what my opponent does is Ref-able but that's about it.

Michael
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By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#549231
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent? - No
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events? - Not 'only', but that is where most of my ref decking happens...
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back? - Pine, Oak, Ash; whatever it takes. I'll even willow if it gets the job done.
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets? - When there are only a few I sorta like it, but with many I don't.
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#549271
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent? Most of the time, yes. I like the backup of having the ref cards available to me. It has helped me in the past, getting Mirror Image, White Deprivation or Intruder Alert at crucial moments.
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events? No. They usually go in most decks I build.
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back? I don't see it as missing a seed slot. I mean, if I'm not playing Tribunal, I'm seeding Defend Homeworld for its SECURITY download. If I seed Tribunal, I can still get DH from the Tent. Tribunal gives me flexibility.
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets? I'm actually kind of puzzled by the way this question is worded. I don't see the existing OTF-legal ref cards as making the game rock/paper/scissors at all. All of the really heinous strategies of the bad old days have been nerfed either by errata or the OTF format (I don't played open unless its sealed). The nastiest strategies left are almost all battle-related. Those strategies are hedged by ref cards, but that's all. Strategema only protects my at my homeworld, but you gotta go somewhere sooner or later. The aforementioned Intruder Alert (with Intruder Forcefield) protects me from small-potatoes invaders. If your opponent goes whole-hog, you're still fooked. You can mitigate a lot of stuff, but in my, admittedly limited, experience I have never had an opponent automatically lose a game because they were playing a strategy I could use a Ref card for.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549279
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent? - Never used Tent: Civial War. i use Tribunal of Q in about 60% of my decks
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events? - I use Strategema and/or Defend Homeworld, but only in decks that need them. It does not matter if its a bigger tournament or not
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back? - Yeah new variants of standard seeds (AMS etc.) would be great. especially cards that combine stuff, so that their are more seeds availalbe. e.g. AMS with [1E-AU] providing function but no points for AMS
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets? - a bit, but it should be reduced. Alernate versions for Defend Homeworld / Strategema that are not [Ref] might provide an alternative to using tribunal / refers at all
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#549281
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent? - No
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events? More often yes. But I also use them alot because draws are cheaper than seeds if I want more than one. A seed for masaka, dhw, and teh situational parts of the other cards is worth it.
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back? - Nope
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets? - Do I ever.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549298
I have used some ref stuff. But Cleveland wasn't a breakneck 1e hold out. We played for the fun of it when we could get it arranged. And Oklahoma is just a barren waste land for players of star trek.

Last time I used Tent: Civil War was to have scorched hand because korby downloaded it and I already had 13 cards in my tent. It wasn't for the ref cycle, just for convenience.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#549305
SirDan wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:16 pm Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent?
Nope. I often don't even have a Tent.
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events?
Meh - last time I was at a "competitive" event I was running it. :)
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back?
Nah - I remember when you had to count your six missions. Eighteen dilemmas gets you twelve seeds.
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets?
Is it RPS, or is it old D&D style "save or die"?
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#549308
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent?
No. I use it less and less, and it would even be lesser when Defend Homeworld wasn't a [Ref] (which it shouldn't be anymore). That card makes Tribunal more or less a free seed.

Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events?
Whether a tournament is competitive or not is not a criteria for me.

Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets?
I may have a different definition of silver bullets, but when it comes to Ref cards, I think that aspect sucks. Decipher's system of "bring the card (and draw into it) or face the shit" has always been an insufficient workaround for bannings/erratas. It required the implementation of a chimera (Q The Referee, Civil War, Tribunal) to make it even work steadily.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#549310
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent?

Almost never, at this point. I just accept that I'm going to miss out on the chance to mirror my opponent's Kivas Fajo - Collectors and that I'd better tech up against redshirts, because I hate having to stock the Q stuff too much. (Also, I like redshirting, and the game does almost nothing to punish me for that right now, 'specially in space.) When I need Strategema, I routinely just seed Strategema.

I've had no local meta for the past year, but I felt that, prior to covid lockdowns, casual locals only had maybe... I dunno, 25% of decks running Tribunal stuff? People are feeling safe to bring out their decks with KFC as the primary draw engine, is what I'm saying.

I do have a few decks that benefit from draw-speed access to what is essentially a weird kind of sideboard: I can get Defend Homeworld if I need a SECURITY guy, I can get Intruder Alert! if Khan is on my Borg cube (whoopsie), I can get Obelisk if my hand is trash. There, the benefit can be great enough that I just can't afford NOT to run Civil War, even though I dislike it.

If Defend Homeworld lost its [Ref] icon, which I think it should at this point, that would take a lot of the remaining air out of the balloon.

Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events?

Yes. Competitive events are the only events where I'll consider adding Tribunal / Civil War to a deck that doesn't already have them.

But, true story, I will not pack Containment Field anymore, even when it would clearly be the "right" thing to do for my deck. I have too much antipathy toward that card to use it on others.

I also no longer teach newbies about [Ref] mechanics, and no longer feel that I have to in order for them to play competitively.

Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back?

I did, but then I (largely) reclaimed my seed slots! Huzzah! I'm pretty happy about this.

Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets?

I didn't really play in the RPS period of Ref Cards. My budding years were the days of mandatory use-them-or-lose-the-game Ref Cards (GenQ + YAAM + ItZ), complete with stupid timing tricks until the cows came home, and I hated that.

Now I think they function mainly -- as I said -- as a sideboard rather than RPS counters. That's not the worst thing.

Although Containment Field can still go die in a fire.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#549316
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:58 am
Although Containment Field can still go die in a fire.
Would you have this level of Hate(tm) for this card if you and/or your opponent couldn't cheese-cycle to discard the cards stacked on it? If so that's fair.

If you just want unfettered access to [DL] , well, then, you're wrong. :wink:
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549323
i need very good reasons to not play qt:cw and trib, because redshirting is way too strong and missing out on the other refcards can also often be a huge disadvantage. cw disables tutoring though and trib without cw is afwul.
therefore i at least seed villagers usually, but then i really miss masaka and scorched hand.

there is quite a trend in the meta nowadays to cut the refpile i feel and then everybody acts surprised when redshirting leads to really short games.
tribq is definitely better than most dilemmas still

i dont think anybody wouldnt like more seedslots in 1e though, which means i shouldnt be forced to seed dh sepertately.
there is also no rsp involved with refcards. pls play the modern game.

i only play /build competetively
Last edited by Ensign Q on Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#549337
Do you always play with Tribunal of Q, Q the Referee, and/or Ref Cards in your Tent or Civil War Tent?
No, try not to use a tent at all.
Do you only bring them to "more competitive" events?
No, If an opponent uses anything that requires ref-cards I'm probably not playing in that tournament.
Do you pine for a world where you get seed slot(s) back?
Not really. I don't use them so I don't really have that problem.
Do you like the Rock/Scissors aspect of Ref Cards and Silver Bullets?
No! It's a crappy game design. There is a place for counters for specific cards that would show up in a limited format/rotational format only if it was not the go-to mechanic or if it was forcing a very specific build that was maybe not the most powerful one.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#549344
Armus wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:53 am
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:58 am
Although Containment Field can still go die in a fire.
Would you have this level of Hate(tm) for this card if you and/or your opponent couldn't cheese-cycle to discard the cards stacked on it? If so that's fair.

If you just want unfettered access to [DL] , well, then, you're wrong. :wink:
Old but saves me from retyping: viewtopic.php?p=492965#p492965
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:09 pm
AllenGould wrote:
BCSWowbagger wrote: *However, I don't think you can get rid of or even reduce access to Containment Field without doing something to limit [DL] . Containment Field is an important card right now to keep [DL] from becoming completely unstoppable; curbing it means they WILL become unstoppable without further action. I hate Containment Field with the power of a thousand suns, though, so I support whatever is necessary to get it out of OTF.
Just to check - do you hate that it limits [DL], or that the owning player can toggle it on/off at will? I've always liked the throttling, but Q-Ref's ability to make it a one-sided offensive trick irks me deeply.
The thing I hate with the power of seven hundred suns is the Q-Ref/Tribunal/CF combo.

I'm not really a fan of the card in general, though. The way it imposes its limit is through some fairly complicated bookkeeping mechanics that take a lot of time (especially with an indecisive player trying to decide which card to defer) and it's easy to forget (at a fairly steep price). It's a dumb, distracting minigame that bears a passing resemblance to the Static Warp Bubble minigame it itself effectively bans. But I only hate that whole deal with the power of three hundred suns.

Like Armus says, the card is needed right now because of how [DL] is situated right now. Because I hate both parts of this card, I'd prefer we find a way to do Something Else with [DL] . You all know what Something Else I consider ideal, so I won't belabor it, but there's got to be a lot of Somethings Else out there that are at least preferable to Containment Field.
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