This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549609
how about turning (random selection) (Image)and (opponents choice) (Image)into two new icons?

just to free up valuable card space.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#549624
Star Wars CCG does this sort of thing, and it works decently well. Getting player buy-in would probably be the most difficult part.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#549640
Icons as shortcuts for rules text irk me - go play a couple games of 7 Wonders without easy access to the rulebook to look up WTH this card actually does*.


*
"Each opponent discards a Leader, face down. The player with Wil’s card takes all the discarded Leaders, chooses one and puts him into play for free. The remaining Leaders are discarded. Each opponent draws a new Leader to replace the discarded one."
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549641
changing tons of cards to introduce icons that have a implied meaning... nah.

I am for the opposite. Undo the nemesis icon rules etc. and create a card instead, that gives the icon a meaning, without the need to learn implied meanings to icons.

[Holo] and quadrants and stuff are already enought.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#549642
I think this would be a “loaded icon”, which is something we’re trying to move away from!
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549643
KazonPADD wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:10 pm I think this would be a “loaded icon”, which is something we’re trying to move away from!
:thumbsup:

Which could be unloaded?
* [NemL] [NemR] Nemesis
* [Down] [Flip] (just explain it on Battle Bridge Door and delete the 2nd function or create a seperate card for it)
* [DL] Maybe add a (seed) card allowing (and limiting) its use, while descripting it on a card?
* Maybe infiltrator and explaining how they work. maybe rework the mechanic, because beaming around until the infiltrator is with a personal the other player wants to, is a strange and unnesseary time consuming thing. Maybe having an infiltrator located at a loction. and when at that location there is a mission attempt theiy can join as a valid response to the attempt, instead of constantly being beamed with (or not with) the personal they are infiltrating.

Aside from that, i´d say there are already many icons unloaded. If more text space is required on a card, reduce lore or make 2 cards out of it :cross:
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#549729
Disagree with these kinds of icons.

Of all things that could be turned into icons, these are not the worst choices. But my opposition to this idea is generic, and includes these phrases; as well as, in principle, all other text that can be turned into icons. Where would it end?

It would start looking like pictionary, like SW CCG ended up like. (I had already started writing this reply -- but couldn't yet polish it -- when Chewie mentioned that. I respectfully disagree with Chewie that is was a good thing.) The more text is fitted into cards, the more cards themselves become a puzzle game. I believe the shortage of space fulfills a function; to keep this a card game, instead of a game with small essay booklets which first have to be deciphered.

People already have to (partially) memorize 4000+ cards at present.

Adding to the possible functionality of cards (due to more space) might also, indirectly, entail a risk of making turns longer and ever more complicated. While the general consensus seems to be that there should be more turns in a game (not longer and thus less turns), this is yet another reason for me to be adamantly opposed to replacing text by graphics.
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#549733
Mr.Sloan wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:06 pm changing tons of cards to introduce icons that have a implied meaning... nah.

I am for the opposite. Undo the nemesis icon rules etc. and create a card instead, that gives the icon a meaning, without the need to learn implied meanings to icons.

[Holo] and quadrants and stuff are already enought.
Yes, the Nemesis icon is especially bad because it's not colorblind friendly and it's tied to a "Gotcha!" type rule that could cause NPE for new players who had no idea it existed.

The hologram rules are also quite a lot of baggage that comes along with that icon.
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Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#549734
AllenGould wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:58 pm Icons as shortcuts for rules text irk me - go play a couple games of 7 Wonders without easy access to the rulebook to look up WTH this card actually does*.
Best part about only playing that game online now is I just have to mouse over the icons to see what they do.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#549910
SudenKapala wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:16 am I respectfully disagree with Chewie that is was a good thing.
That's fair. I think they're kind of a mixed bag in Star Wars, to be honest.

The ones which work best are probably \/ and /\. And to be honest, \/ is derived from 1E's own [DL] . I wouldn't be opposed to allowing the [DL] icon on incidents, events, objectives, etc..

Star Wars also has the piloting icon. That one probably should have been a keyword from the start, and can be chalked up to the fact that nobody knew how to design games in the '90s. This icon works okay, but isn't ideal.

The upkeep icons? Decipher added those late in the game to try to squeeze as much money as they could out of a license they knew they were losing. Absolute trash.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#549911
Here's something I've been thinking about for a bit: a loaded icon works best when ignoring it causes no damage to the game-state.

To expand that - I don't mean "are you playing well" or "is your deck sub-optimal", but "would an opponent/TD give you flack for playing the game incorrectly". If you play the game as if the icon wasn't there, how badly have you broken the rules?

On one extreme is the infiltration icons. If you play as if the icon wasn't there, you're.. well, you're probably playing them like 99% of players do today, because infiltration ain't a big strategy. But you won't have done anything *wrong*. [DL] is in the same bucket - yes, you're missing out, but you won't break any rules by just ignoring it.

The other extreme is [Holo] and [1E-AU] , where ignoring them means you are almost certainly breaking rules around requirements to report or where cards are allowed to exist.

In the middle is stuff like Nemesis icons or [BB] , where you're fine until it comes up and then you'll have not done something you were supposed to do.

Obviously all of them have baggage, but I would argue that it's far preferable to do stuff that is optional than stuff that is hiding "you broke the rules" gotchas.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#550575
Like the idea, but it's generally unnecessary. Mostly because it only replaces a small part of the direction instead of the whole thing.

[NemR] is a good symbol because it replaces like 3 paragraphs of text.
[DL] Same here.

The ones proposed would still have alot of text around it. For example:

"Select two personnel from crew or away team [symbol]. Then select one of them to die [symbol]"

I suppose you could do something like this:

2 - [Icon], 1 - [Icon]

but then you really have a ton of space that you aren't going to fill with anything else anyway.


So, yeah. I like the idea, but not in this particular instance.
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