This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#569410
I had to remind myself what this thread was about. But in addition to all that's been said, If there was an objective about acquiring artifacts that also came with a point gain, there would be an incentive to start deckbuilding with them again.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#569411
stressedoutatumc wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:50 am I had to remind myself what this thread was about. But in addition to all that's been said, If there was an objective about acquiring artifacts that also came with a point gain, there would be an incentive to start deckbuilding with them again.
The Inner Light
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#569418
JeBuS wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:02 am
stressedoutatumc wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:50 am I had to remind myself what this thread was about. But in addition to all that's been said, If there was an objective about acquiring artifacts that also came with a point gain, there would be an incentive to start deckbuilding with them again.
The Inner Light
I meant something more globally. I felt the spirit of the thought experiment is what would get people to play with more artifacts. There have been some good suggestions but what if there was an objective card that gave you say 10 or 15 bonus points once each location for an artifact you earned AND seeded? That would be a hell of an incentive to seed artifacts. At the very least it would present a deckbuilding choice and reward.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#569419
stressedoutatumc wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:27 pm I meant something more globally. I felt the spirit of the thought experiment is what would get people to play with more artifacts. There have been some good suggestions but what if there was an objective card that gave you say 10 or 15 bonus points once each location for an artifact you earned AND seeded? That would be a hell of an incentive to seed artifacts. At the very least it would present a deckbuilding choice and reward.
Or would it just mean that the few artifacts that are still in use would just become more powerful, while the rest continue to languish in obscurity?
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By Mogor
 - Delta Quadrant
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#569422
JeBuS wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:33 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:27 pm I meant something more globally. I felt the spirit of the thought experiment is what would get people to play with more artifacts. There have been some good suggestions but what if there was an objective card that gave you say 10 or 15 bonus points once each location for an artifact you earned AND seeded? That would be a hell of an incentive to seed artifacts. At the very least it would present a deckbuilding choice and reward.
Or would it just mean that the few artifacts that are still in use would just become more powerful, while the rest continue to languish in obscurity?
My thoughts are the ones that are in use would become more powerful and you would have to add artificat hate to balance it out
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#569425
question is, what do artifacts add to the game?

you get rewards for just playing the game, as if the points werent good enough.
if anything, powerful artifacts should cancel mission points or theyre just a snowball mechanic
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
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#569444
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:23 pm question is, what do artifacts add to the game?

you get rewards for just playing the game, as if the points werent good enough.
if anything, powerful artifacts should cancel mission points or theyre just a snowball mechanic
If there was any conscious thought on the part of the original designers about why they should include artifacts beyond "powerful cards sell packs -> $$$ but how can we make them not look as broken", I am thinking that it was to make the seed phase more interesting prior to batch seeding. Since the seed phase has evolved we don't need that.

I think later designers might have chosen to make artifacts because they felt powerful effects like Genesis Device should have a cost associated with them, but didn't want to escalate the counter war and "Draw no cards this turn" was already taken by Q's tent which was played heavily prior to so many other options to get key cards (such as drawing tons of cards almost by default).

So here we are in the golden age of this game, which I say with only a few reservations. As a card game player I think this is the best the game has been and Artifacts are what they sound like: relics of the past.

I don't think a blanket artifact killer counter is the solution. I think Artifacts should be mostly converted into other card types and given appropriate costs even if that's just a card play and being another type that can be nullified.

The remainder that really feel like results of solving a mission might add some kind of requirements to obtain them such as point loss or discarding some kind of resource and then become a trade off instead of a reward for doing what you were going to do anyway.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#569454
I like that we are having this discussion of what do Artifacts really bring to the table.

I think there's a few things:

- Flavor. It's not always true (looking at you Genitronic Replicator for example.). But these is something about earning an artifact that has a flavor appeal, and that was one of the disappointments in 2E for me.

- Cost #1: Seed slot. In a world where the seed phase has so many possible things, it's easy to forget the basic tension that artifacts ha as a cost. You had to choose between advancing your game plan, or slowing the opponent. I could see an alternate world where artifacts had a variable cost of more then 1 seed card, really increasing that tension.

- Another big up and downside in one was that you were able to disguise your self seeds

- adding risk. When I seed Defend Homeward, I get a guaranteed personnel. Cool. When I seed Betazoid Gift Box, I get to "download" any 3 cards to hand, but there's an added tension because my opponent could not just steal the mission, but the artifact. That adds more decision points for both players. DO you rush to try and get the artifact before you are prepared? Do you put your strongest dilemmas there to block access to the artifact, or weaker ones so you can steal it?

For good and bad, this no longer really exists with most missions being unsealable by rule. I won't claim that I want mission stealing to come back, but I do think it's worth highlighting that there was some modicum of depth lost when this was basically removed from the game.


__________

Now, from a design standpoint, I would want acquiring and using an artifact to be a moment that the game has a clear before and after point.

Not even just from a win more standpoint - Ensign Q has a good point there.

But something that changes the basic rule structure of the game. Persistence of Memory is the one that comes to mind.

Imagine something that when acquired changes the span of every mission to 5, or adds a staffing requirement to all ships, etc.

___________

I don't know that artifacts have a great place in the current game. And in many ways the game is at the best it's been in a long time. But I'm not sure that there's not something that was lost in that original gameplay loop.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#569455
from an rpg point of view, id like the treasure hunt, as an alternative way to win the game.
question remains, how you balance that?
earn 3 artifacts to win the game?
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#569457
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:08 pm from an rpg point of view, id like the treasure hunt, as an alternative way to win the game.
question remains, how you balance that?
earn 3 artifacts to win the game?
Artifacts that unlock alternate win conditions?

Artifacts that say if you also control these other two artifacts, you win the game?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#569458
Bringing this back around full circle, my original idea of being able to seed and aquire more than one artifact at a single mission seems like the simplest way to boost [Art] as a card type while having the ancillary benefit of boosting the usefulness of ajur and boratus post errata. Then also making dilemma seeding more high stakes and creating some more interesting dead end twists.

I would really like to see more artifacts with interesting gameplay get made. The only limit is the designers imagination and could theoretically be an untapped way to get ban cards off the list. I could envision an artifact + errata to ban list card combo where the errata is "you get x, or x+ if you have artifact Y".
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#569460
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:25 pm
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:08 pm from an rpg point of view, id like the treasure hunt, as an alternative way to win the game.
question remains, how you balance that?
earn 3 artifacts to win the game?
Artifacts that unlock alternate win conditions?

Artifacts that say if you also control these other two artifacts, you win the game?
i like that. exodia style
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#569508
JeBuS wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:33 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:27 pm I meant something more globally. I felt the spirit of the thought experiment is what would get people to play with more artifacts. There have been some good suggestions but what if there was an objective card that gave you say 10 or 15 bonus points once each location for an artifact you earned AND seeded? That would be a hell of an incentive to seed artifacts. At the very least it would present a deckbuilding choice and reward.
Or would it just mean that the few artifacts that are still in use would just become more powerful, while the rest continue to languish in obscurity?
I think it could be incentivized otherwise, though, yes, I see that danger. I'm not going to lie and say I have a perfect answer, but maybe that also speaks to a need to errata a bunch of artifacts. To answer another's question, I think Artifacts made much more sense in the way-back version of the game where games lasted longer and there were many more turns. Maybe a better solution would be to create an incident that turned all artifacts (except the Genesis Device or Cryosatelite or other problematic ones) into interrupts or events.
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#569517
An idea that could be fun is a seed-able card:

Your away team on planet with Archaeology (x 2?) that just solved a [1E-P] mission may "excavate" (stopped one full turn) to download one (as if earned) valid artifact if they remain unopposed during that time.

This allows for some fun interaction where the opponent attempts to interrupt their excavation to prevent this artifact from being earned (and the player preventing beam downs). I would like to add some other effect to the card, perhaps a +5 point bonus for artifacts earned this way.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#569525
OrionSyndicate wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:33 pm An idea that could be fun is a seed-able card:

Your away team on planet with Archaeology (x 2?) that just solved a [1E-P] mission may "excavate" (stopped one full turn) to download one (as if earned) valid artifact if they remain unopposed during that time.

This allows for some fun interaction where the opponent attempts to interrupt their excavation to prevent this artifact from being earned (and the player preventing beam downs). I would like to add some other effect to the card, perhaps a +5 point bonus for artifacts earned this way.
Exactly, there's tons of design space in the realm of [Art] and maneuvering space in the rulebook to make the card type better balanced in the modern game.
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