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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552815
Ausgang wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:30 am
Spectre9 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:32 am CC makes ref decks and makes Oof a ref card.
That's only half correct. In fact Decipher made Oof! a Ref card.

To your question, I am not sure if the decline of counters is solely based on [Ref]. The speed of the game, and how players construct their decks (lesser targets for counters) are a big factor too.
This plus the fact that OTF Rules went on to stop multiple downloads a turn. That caused a rise of 'draw as many cards as you can and play as many as you can a turn for free'.

No one wants dead draws when you can't download cards more than once a turn.

That turned the Q Tent into a Download Deck instead of being a pitch runner/hitter type of side deck.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#553022
I don't mind the point loss at all -- I'm generally going for 115 points, so I have a buffer. I don't think removing the point-loss penalty on counters would substantially affect them.

For me, part of it is the dead-draw effect, already discussed.

Another part of it is the timing. Quinn and Amanda never seem to be in my hand at the moment when I actually need them.

Most of it, though, is the lack of targets! I've stocked Kevin in quite a few games -- since the timing for him doesn't generally matter -- only to have absolutely nothing to use him on, because nearly everything is either

(a) an Incident,
(b) immune to Kevin, or
(c) protected by something else (usually Ready Room Door!).

So Kevin ends up a very dead draw, because the game has, in many cases, immunized itself against Kevin.

And stocking Amanda seems extra-silly, because so few players use interrupts at all, and those who do tend to use them in high multiples, so one Amanda doesn't make them break a sweat.

Amanda Rogers: Protector is kinda cool, but only remotely worth it in a no-hand Starfleet deck. Cellular Peptide Cake was designed as an extremely constrained counter card for Block use only and... well, I'll tell ya it doesn't work outside Block. :)
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#553046
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:25 pm I don't mind the point loss at all -- I'm generally going for 115 points, so I have a buffer. I don't think removing the point-loss penalty on counters would substantially affect them.

For me, part of it is the dead-draw effect, already discussed.

Another part of it is the timing. Quinn and Amanda never seem to be in my hand at the moment when I actually need them.

Most of it, though, is the lack of targets! I've stocked Kevin in quite a few games -- since the timing for him doesn't generally matter -- only to have absolutely nothing to use him on, because nearly everything is either

(a) an Incident,
(b) immune to Kevin, or
(c) protected by something else (usually Ready Room Door!).

So Kevin ends up a very dead draw, because the game has, in many cases, immunized itself against Kevin.

And stocking Amanda seems extra-silly, because so few players use interrupts at all, and those who do tend to use them in high multiples, so one Amanda doesn't make them break a sweat.

Amanda Rogers: Protector is kinda cool, but only remotely worth it in a no-hand Starfleet deck. Cellular Peptide Cake was designed as an extremely constrained counter card for Block use only and... well, I'll tell ya it doesn't work outside Block. :)
In terms of ‘dead draw’ that’s why I have mutations and other draw mechanisms that let me put a card into my discard pile and draw new cards. I do that with a lot of cards but it’s a more of a risky proposal when it comes to interrupts that can give you negative points.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#553103
Short answer is it adds cards to my deck without guaranteeing use. If I'm going to go for some prevention, it has to be necessary and I have to play in duplicate. For example, I run multiple KU: Convergence cards when I'm afraid of Byron Buildup, or multiple AR or Quinn if I think there's a nasty interrupt that will ruin my day.

That's the reason I don't like Devil, tbh. You have to stack 5-6 copies just to be sure you have a AR or a Quinn when they play the Devil.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#553104
DarkSabre wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:29 am
In terms of ‘dead draw’ that’s why I have mutations and other draw mechanisms that let me put a card into my discard pile and draw new cards. I do that with a lot of cards but it’s a more of a risky proposal when it comes to interrupts that can give you negative points.
That doesn't solve the problem, though, as it adds to the overall size of the deck, which isn't good, imo. I use the same strategy, but I hate the fact that I have cards I don't need just taking up space then have to take up even more space to stock cards to dwindle that space.
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#553163
There are multiple answers to this question I've discovered.

First, I seldom play cut-throat games/tournaments to win so I seldom need them in that capacity. And as the game has moved away from being able to counter stuff AND having counters that are too wide in targeting cards, they have just gotten useless (i.e. everyone's talk about a bunch of dead draws).
The sad part is that games with counters are usually quite fun if designed to be used in specific decks and not the colourless version that can fit in any deck with little to no drawback. This has made the game less open to counter strategies/denial because it's just too easy.

But when I do play them I tend to go for the Kevin/Quinn to remove the important cards that you can actually target. If I'm playing a heavy interference deck with lots of Interrupts (like Borg) I try to squeeze in Amandas instead of the Kevins. Usually, I don't go for both. And I only play the Devil when I know that I'm in a meta with lots of Treaties. Because there needs to be a cost to them and unfortunately it's been thrust upon the opponent instead of the player.

So to be clear. I love counters but not in the form we have in the game today (or yesterday really). There is a lack of decks with this feature and too many scripted cards that should really need to be costed with the possibility of countering. And there's a wide game design space for affiliated specific counter strategies and cards that has so far has not been tapped.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#553183
stressedoutatumc wrote: That doesn't solve the problem, though, as it adds to the overall size of the deck, which isn't good, imo. I use the same strategy, but I hate the fact that I have cards I don't need just taking up space then have to take up even more space to stock cards to dwindle that space.
Decks used to be larger. Decks that I have that use a 'mill useless cards for draws' generally happen to be 60+ cards in the draw deck.
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