This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#552686
Hi folks! I'm here to bring you a question today, and it's one based on some hot topics here lately. A lot of talk has been going on about The Devil, and how it can devastate a treaty-based deck. One of the common arguments against making changes to The Devil is that cards like Quinn and Amanda Rodgers exist, allowing you to defend against those threats.

But most of 1E's "counter" cards (card that can prevent interrupts or events are typically referred to as "counter" cards in collectible card games) cost points. Either directly, like Quinn, or via the [Ref] card Oof!, like Amanda Rodgers. In an era where the game is very fast (and thus a race to 100 points), it seems like a lot of people aren't willing to spend those points on these cards.

Where do you fall? Do you use cards like Quinn in your decks? All of them, or just some? If you don't, why not? Is the post cost too much? Would other options, with different costs, make things make more sense for you?

Share your thoughts and sound off!

-crp
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#552694
MidnightLich wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:03 pm Hi folks! I'm here to bring you a question today, and it's one based on some hot topics here lately. A lot of talk has been going on about The Devil, and how it can devastate a treaty-based deck. One of the common arguments against making changes to The Devil is that cards like Quinn and Amanda Rodgers exist, allowing you to defend against those threats.

But most of 1E's "counter" cards (card that can prevent interrupts or events are typically referred to as "counter" cards in collectible card games) cost points. Either directly, like Quinn, or via the [Ref] card Oof!, like Amanda Rodgers. In an era where the game is very fast (and thus a race to 100 points), it seems like a lot of people aren't willing to spend those points on these cards.

Where do you fall? Do you use cards like Quinn in your decks? All of them, or just some? If you don't, why not? Is the post cost too much? Would other options, with different costs, make things make more sense for you?

Share your thoughts and sound off!

-crp
I use 1 Kevin Uxbridge in the Q´s Tent, becuase their are some dangerous Events. I 99% do not use multiple compies of Kevin/Quinn/Amanda etc.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#552707
3x Quinn in [1E-TNG] [Bor], otherwise none.

I suppose if I was playing a heavy Assign Mission Specialists or New Civilizations deck I might.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552731
I don't because 7 times out of 10 it will cost you the game.

I will say for the past few years I have been playing almost weekly either with my kids or my brother or a friend here and there. There are many times where a 5 or 10 point differential will allow you to win or lose. The fact that Oof is a Ref card makes it hard. However, personally, even if Oof was taken off as a ref card I would just go ahead and stock it in my Q-Tent or in my deck to use on the off chance I can negate some points from my opponent (or get rid of Fight'n Words)

I see people commenting 'how many they use' but no one is commenting why they aren't. Going to assume it's due to not losing points.

I believe Counters are a scalpel that can be used to make the game more 'interesting' because it might disrupt my deck design or my opponents. It makes me think harder and work harder on not only my deck but also my playing during a game.

Right not, 80% of the time I feel I don't need to worry about my opponent having anything to go against my deck build unless they are playing battle or something unique (aka Niall-style)
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Shipping Manager
By SirDan (Dan Hamman)
 - Shipping Manager
 -  
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
#552736
I don't play counter cards for a few reasons.

Number one in big bold letters is that they are potential dead draws. If I'm playing a solver, which I admit I often am, dead draws means I lose to another solver who draws better. There may not be anything to counter, so they get cut for something I know I can use every game.

Number two is that counters are un-fun. You built your deck to do something - I'd rather see it work and lose, than counter it and screw up your plans. Unless I'm deliberately trying to interact, that's just not that way I roll.

Losing points? Not on my list. Points are easy.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552744
Personally, counters don't jibe with my play style. I have ways I attack opponents and decks based on my theories, experiences and opinions. Counters can protect me in a clutch moment but they don't stop my opponent from playing people, ships and attempting missions so.......if I'm gonna run it those 5 points better be worth it and most of the time I don't feel that way.

Add onto that the fact that I have only rarely encountered a moment where an opponent countering my verb would be the game.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#552747
If I'm playing a serious deck, and there are interrupts and events that will make my life miserable? Welp, five points is a pretty cheap price to pay.

Alternately, if the meta screams "oh, everyone is doing Thing", seems silly to not stock a couple of Counter For Thing. I ain't a great player, and definitely ain't too proud to take an opening everyone is leaving, y'know?
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#552748
The ones I want to play are convergence, goddess, and rishon (usually seeded via Assist Survivors).

I don't think I have done any of those except Rishon in an early TNG Block deck. But I can't find it so I probably never got around to it.
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#552750
I can basically only echo what others already said. Reactive cards like counters do not advance your deck towards winning the game, so there has to be very good reasons (or a lot more card draw, cycling, hand/deck manipulation etc.) to justify their inclusion. If my deck allows some leniency for 1-2 silver bullets, Amanda Rogers is the card I choose most of the time.
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By sexecutioner (Niall Matthew)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E World Runner-Up 2023
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E British National Second Runner-Up 2023
#552755
Recently, I'll always try to add some of the counter trio into my deck. Mainly Amanda to take out a potential Adapt card.

This year, me and my opponent had a fun Kevin/Q2 fight. It was almost like we traveled back in time to the 90's :)
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#552757
Spectre9 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:32 am CC makes ref decks and makes Oof a ref card.
That's only half correct. In fact Decipher made Oof! a Ref card.

To your question, I am not sure if the decline of counters is solely based on [Ref]. The speed of the game, and how players construct their decks (lesser targets for counters) are a big factor too.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#552770
Quinn won me 2 games at Manassters a couple years ago against 2 really good players.

Counter the right thing at the right time and it could be cash mad money. 8)
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