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By rabyte
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#560336
What would you say is the best block for beginners to start with? I like the idea of a limited card pool so I think it makes sense to focus on one block for the beginning. Since the starter decks of CoA are in the TNG block, I guess it makes sense to explore that further. :shifty:

I heard somewhere DS9 was the "worst" block so far. Before that I did not really think about it but if you have to limit yourself to only one block, what would you say is the best block and why? For example, I could imagine that the "Enterprise" block feels really different from the original game because it has new affiliations?

Thanks :)
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#560339
TNG. I love the idea of block and I'd love for it to work, but it's just not fully fleshed out. I've tried to build block-only decks for TOS and DS9 and I just can't realistically do it. I've not tried for VOY or ENT. TNG is the only one I can realistically build multiple interesting decks in, IMO.

Hopefully people who know more than me can weigh in here, but the core block list isn't quite enough. I think each block could probably do with an evaluation to add a handful of non-block cards to its pool. For example, perhaps Protect the Timeline could be added to the TOS pool (that's an off the top of my head example, by the way, don't judge it). It's a pity because I'd love for it to work. Somewhere I have notes about what I felt was missing, but I'd have to dig them out.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#560343
The best block period? I have enjoyed each block very much. But I don't have a Favorite Series, so that could have something to do with it.

I enjoyed playing [1E-TNG] [1E-Fer] , and i enjoy making [1E-DS9] [Baj] Circle decks and [KCA] Regent decks. I loved making [Vul] decks, too!

Unfortunately, my old playgroup was a 2e group for most of my stay, so most of my 1e decks don't see tournament play.

As for Protect the timelines, there are no time locations in the [OS] block, so it wouldn't do anything.

The best block for getting people into trek (or just playing it)? [1E-TNG] is by far the simplest, smoothest entry point.
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#560349
winterflames wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:46 am As for Protect the timelines, there are no time locations in the [OS] block, so it wouldn't do anything.
Ah, good point. Throw Sherman's Peak and Guardian of Forever in there as well, and associated missions. You see my point though, one of the primary ways to build a (sort of) unique and flavorful [OS] deck is not in the block.

If you did want a realistic limited card pool, basing it around property logos and [RC] (or appropriate engine) works well. So you could build a realistic [1E-DS9] "block" by limiting it to Reshape the Quadrant and [1E-DS9] only dilemmas. Or make a list of appropriate engines for each pool and use those.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560351
I'd do a hybrid: the OS block proper + the TNG block proper. So my set list would be:

Homefronts I - VI
The Next Generation
Engage
The Sky's the Limit
The Cage
The Neutral Zone
A Private Little War
BaH!

EDIT:

ENT Block was the nadir of Block, IMO. The cards in it simply weren't designed for Block play at all, and you end up with these really simple solver decks that nevertheless require the huge and beginner-hostile infrastructure of reporting to time locations. Also, in the one ENT-Block tournament I played, the Vulcans simply dominated everyone else, hands down. (Although this was back before the Vulcan errata.)

DS9 Block got the worst reputation, because its power level was so much lower than the TNG Block with which it was paired (and gamers hate lower power levels), but, taken on its own terms, DS9 was actually one of the best blocks, and really the only one that was designed, soup to nuts, for the Block environment. (TNG's Block play was artificially grafted on to "Life From Lifelessness Block," which was not actually a block, so there were some truly bizarre cards in the pool.)
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#560363
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:53 am I'd do a hybrid: the OS block proper + the TNG block proper. So my set list would be:
You wouldn't include Trouble with Tribbles or Mirror, Mirror? Those sets contain many of the cards that would add some flavor to the [OS] block, in my opinion, so I'm curious if there's something in particular that makes you leave them out. Maybe the time locations?

I'd also say the Mirror block stands pretty well on its own since so much of it is entirely unique, but for the same reasons it is not beginner friendly.

EDIT: If people were willing to playtest, I'd love to participate in the overhaul of blocks. As I say, it probably wouldn't take much to flesh out some blocks. That said, the property logo "fix" works pretty well, IMO, if you're teaching the game and the basics of deck building. They are large enough and interesting enough to maybe just discard the idea of block all together.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560370
winterflames wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:03 pm That sounds like an excellent Happy Android/The One hybrid deck to me...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
phaserihardlyknowher wrote:
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:53 am I'd do a hybrid: the OS block proper + the TNG block proper. So my set list would be:
You wouldn't include Trouble with Tribbles or Mirror, Mirror? Those sets contain many of the cards that would add some flavor to the [OS] block, in my opinion, so I'm curious if there's something in particular that makes you leave them out. Maybe the time locations?
Few reasons:

1. Block was always supposed to be a virtual format, and I thought that was good. You could incorporate a few cards through Supplemental reprints / the Block Core List, but basically just the minimum for fun.

(SIDEBAR: You knew Block was dead because, even after spending much of The Cage's development trying to figure out how to make the set work in Block, the CC didn't update the Block Core List for The Cage until MONTHS after the set came out, and NEVER updated the Block Core List to include the needed Romulans and Klingons during the remainder of the block. All that work, and I don't think a TOS Block event has ever actually been held. So, yes, I would add a few cards to the TOS pool via tweaks to the Block Core List. But not an entire Decipher set.)

2. If Block is supposed to be beginner-friendly, you don't really want the Mirror Quadrant involved in it at all. So no Mirror dudes.

3. Yes, Time Locations are bad for Block. One of several goals of The Final Frontier was to eliminate time locations from Block, without actually being particularly good outside Block.

(Honestly, that's what got me on board with it -- I think it is generally bad for [1E-AU] cards to report to the spaceline, but that it is justifiable if you are doing it for a card pool-specific purpose. My worry is that now future Design teams are going to look at The Final Frontier, think to themselves "Oh, I guess we don't care about time location nativity anymore," and start making play engines that report [1E-AU] 's straight to the spaceline without understanding the context -- it was only okay because it was being built for Block, to be used primarily in Block, and also by beginners too new to handle the higher power level of Sherman's Peak.)

4. I don't want Tribbles in Block and neither do you. :)

5. Last but not least, the Decipher sets are huge. Including them would overwhelm the card pool.
I'd also say the Mirror block stands pretty well on its own since so much of it is entirely unique, but for the same reasons it is not beginner friendly.
It's definitely an interesting Block! If the concept is that blocks should be friendly to beginners as a limited-pool entry point, then Mirror Block was a failure. If the concept is that blocks should just be cool ways to play the game, then Mirror Block was pretty interesting.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#560372
TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES!
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560374
KazonPADD wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:35 pm TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES!
UPDATE: Paddy wants Tribbles and Block and can have them. All of them. :D
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#560380
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:41 pm
KazonPADD wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:35 pm TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES! TRIBBLES!
UPDATE: Paddy wants Tribbles and Block and can have them. All of them. :D
All 1,771,561 of them? :D
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#560381
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:32 pm It's definitely an interesting Block! If the concept is that blocks should be friendly to beginners as a limited-pool entry point, then Mirror Block was a failure. If the concept is that blocks should just be cool ways to play the game, then Mirror Block was pretty interesting.
I think a limited-pool entry point doesn't necessarily need to be "simple". The fact that a block, by definition, strips out a lot of complexity. So I think you can have a block with Mirror (or another quadrant), or one with Tribbles, or one with Time Locations, or Tactics or Flashes or whatever... but you shouldn't have one with all of those things. (And just how many bells and whistles is too many, and what should be considered "core" and assumed "free complexity" is an exercise for the reader.)

Positioning Block as "newbie mode for newbies" is bad, because it signals to enfranchised players that "this isn't for you". Rather, Block should be "OK, you know how to use all these cards - but can you make it work with this subset?"
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560385
^ Fair counterpoint. I guess I have a fairly low bar for what qualifies as "too much," but then I was always pretty newbie-focused with Block play.

Obviously I'm not particularly shy about doing crazy things in a limited card pool (still looking for a player) under other circumstances.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#560389
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:53 pm ^ Fair counterpoint. I guess I have a fairly low bar for what qualifies as "too much," but then I was always pretty newbie-focused with Block play.
And I'd agree that we need a very newbie product, but I think a playable deck (whether a theme deck a la our current starters or TWT, or the rigged starters from DS9) is a better first step. If we've got them hooked enough that they're trying to build a deck, we need to show enough meat to reel them in. :)

Obviously I'm not particularly shy about doing crazy things in a limited card pool (still looking for a player) under other circumstances.
Yeah, I'm still trying to internalize that rules-set. :)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560396
AllenGould wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:27 pm Yeah, I'm still trying to internalize that rules-set. :)
When you boil it down, it's not that much. The big changes are these:

* Limited card pool (obvs.)
* One player is always [Kli] and the other is always [Fed]; no mirror matches
* Turns are "blended", so your play phase is followed my my play phase is followed by your orders phase is followed by my orders phase.
* Each player brings a 15-card side deck called the Operations Deck.
* Each turn, both players play the top card of the Ops Deck. They can nullify opponent's Ops card each turn, but at a cost.
* Various effects allow you to place development tokens on missions.
* If you get more dev tokens on a mission than your opponent (by a certain amount, which varies), you dominate it.
* You can only solve missions, use special downloads, and use last-listed skills at missions you dominate.
* You have battle restrictions and mission stealing restrictions at missions opponent dominates, and those restrictions depend on the Alert Code Status (which is basically just a tracker that tells you "how many battles are happening").
* Some personnel ("natives") are seeded uncontrolled on their home planets.
* In ship battle, the defender can always pair off into separate engagements (a battle enhancement designed to parallel the invention of combat pairings in First Contact).
* All players have a built-in The Final Frontier (two personnel report for free) and a built-in Five Year Mission (extra card draw).
* Game ends after 10 turns.

The rest of the rules are just filling things in around those "core" rules.

If you've played Twilight Struggle, Wolves is basically just Star Trek: Twilight Struggle. The Alert Code Track is just the DEFCON track, Alert Code 1 is just DEFCON Suicide, development = influence, domination = control, Operations = a weird combination of Ops + Headline Phase, blended turns = action rounds, etc. etc. Didn't invent a new coup mechanic because Trek already has quite robust battle.

I think probably the part of Wolves that most likely needs work is how the Ops Phase interacts with the Alert Code Track. That part of the rules is both too complicated and I think probably isn't even doing what I want it to do (give an early-game advantage to Klingons and a late-game advantage to Feds, to parallel TS's early-game advantage for the Soviets).
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