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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
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Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561154
Holograms must be able to exist at the new location in order to be a legal target, so most likely the answer will be 3 unless there happens to be a Holo-Projectors already in play at the destination; in which case, then the hologram is a legal target.

In other words, if the hologram can't exist at the new location, they, like any females or neuters, are excluded from the random selection.


I stand corrected. As noted below, holos are legal targets and would just be deactivated instead.
Last edited by Professor Scott on Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#561158
I think I may have found my own answer. Maybe a rules person can confirm. According to the rulebook, a Holo personnel cannot be forced to somewhere they can’t exist and would deactivate instead.

So in my scenario, if a hook personnel had to go to another planet where there are no holo emitters and no mobile emitter, it could be selected but wound be immediately deactivated. Correct?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#561163
stressedoutatumc wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:15 pm I think I may have found my own answer. Maybe a rules person can confirm. According to the rulebook, a Holo personnel cannot be forced to somewhere they can’t exist and would deactivate instead.[

So in my scenario, if a hook personnel had to go to another planet where there are no holo emitters and no mobile emitter, it could be selected but wound be immediately deactivated. Correct?
Correct.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561171
BCSWowbagger wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:05 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:15 pm I think I may have found my own answer. Maybe a rules person can confirm. According to the rulebook, a Holo personnel cannot be forced to somewhere they can’t exist and would deactivate instead.[

So in my scenario, if a hook personnel had to go to another planet where there are no holo emitters and no mobile emitter, it could be selected but wound be immediately deactivated. Correct?
Correct.
Which is why holos are a great counter to a deck that wants to trigger defend homeworld
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#561454
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:02 am Kevin Uxbridge is a big help VS holos. Stop them somehow and then Kevin their projectors. Btw: Does Sleeper Trap with Tommygun on a holo-planet work? I forgot if yes or no :( .
I'd go so far as to say Kevin makes Holos slightly miserable to play (what with the Thou Shalt Solve A Planet rule).
Note that you don't need to force a stop. If you've got a Kevin in hand, you can wait for the holos to beam down, then Kevin as your action before they start the attempt.

Sleeper Trap + Tommygun would work, yes.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#561455
AllenGould wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:53 am Sleeper Trap + Tommygun would work, yes.
Would it?

I thought [Holo] cards reported deactivated and you had to activate them as an action. How can you do that mid dilemma?

Now once you start your turn with your team on the planet, sure you can turn your Tommygun on and go to town, but I don't think it works the way you implied it does.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561456
Armus wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:14 am
AllenGould wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:53 am Sleeper Trap + Tommygun would work, yes.
Would it?

I thought [Holo] cards reported deactivated and you had to activate them as an action. How can you do that mid dilemma?

Now once you start your turn with your team on the planet, sure you can turn your Tommygun on and go to town, but I don't think it works the way you implied it does.
According to the rulebook: A [Holo] hologram may report activated, if possible.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#561457
JeBuS wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:20 am
Armus wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:14 am
AllenGould wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:53 am Sleeper Trap + Tommygun would work, yes.
Would it?

I thought [Holo] cards reported deactivated and you had to activate them as an action. How can you do that mid dilemma?

Now once you start your turn with your team on the planet, sure you can turn your Tommygun on and go to town, but I don't think it works the way you implied it does.
According to the rulebook: A [Holo] hologram may report activated, if possible.
Huh. Cool. When did that change?

Or has it always been that way and I'm just dumb? :P
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561458
Armus wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:21 am
JeBuS wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:20 am
Armus wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:14 am

Would it?

I thought [Holo] cards reported deactivated and you had to activate them as an action. How can you do that mid dilemma?

Now once you start your turn with your team on the planet, sure you can turn your Tommygun on and go to town, but I don't think it works the way you implied it does.
According to the rulebook: A [Holo] hologram may report activated, if possible.
Huh. Cool. When did that change?

Or has it always been that way and I'm just dumb? :P
I think we changed it around the time the Revised crew came out. It is for sure a CC invention
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#561463
pfti wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:27 am I think we changed it around the time the Revised crew came out. It is for sure a CC invention
I don't have @BCSWowbagger 's knack for knowing history, but I think it was a combination of (a) requiring Meat Bodies is kinda weird when you look at stuff like Children of Light which pretty clearly says "thou shalt play all-holos", and (b) personnel reporting "off" was a weird gotcha case that a lot of players just didn't remember.

Also, if you look back to First Contact and E.M.H., that "download from hand suspending play" ability doesn't make a whole lot of sense if he arrives turned off and you have to wait for your next action (i.e. after you would have wanted his skills!) to activate him. ;)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#561464
AllenGould wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:47 pm
pfti wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:27 am I think we changed it around the time the Revised crew came out. It is for sure a CC invention
I don't have @BCSWowbagger 's knack for knowing history, but I think it was a combination of (a) requiring Meat Bodies is kinda weird when you look at stuff like Children of Light which pretty clearly says "thou shalt play all-holos", and (b) personnel reporting "off" was a weird gotcha case that a lot of players just didn't remember.

Also, if you look back to First Contact and E.M.H., that "download from hand suspending play" ability doesn't make a whole lot of sense if he arrives turned off and you have to wait for your next action (i.e. after you would have wanted his skills!) to activate him. ;)
Yeah I got no beef with this change, I just don't remember it happening!
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#561470
AllenGould wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:47 pm I don't have @BCSWowbagger 's knack for knowing history
You're very kind, but it's not a knack -- it's a spreadsheet! (Which I look forward to publishing as soon as it's done.)

Incidentally, you yourself are all over this spreadsheet. Last night I started digging into the Comprehensive Rules Document v1.11 by Puff The Magic Dragon -- the final pre-First Contact rules document and the only surviving record of what was in the May 1997 FAQ update--and what do I find in the front matter?

"Special thanks to Allen Gould | agould@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca."

This happens constantly in my researches.

(PERHAPS NOT COINCIDENTALLY, this is also the only demi-official Rules document in history to include an explicit mention of "The Bobs" who run the ships.)

Anyway, on topic: the hologram rule was changed in the CRD of 5 February 2018: https://starshipexcelsior.com/othersite ... 201802.pdf

If I recall correctly, the original impetus for changing it was actually Holographic Settlement in 2015, but we ended up not acting on it at the time and Holographic Settlement got extra text to account for the dumb rule (even though Charlie asked us, "Hey, this rule seems dumb. Do we really need it?"). When we saw the Revised stuff, it was easy to do the change, because we'd already done the research a few years earlier.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#561472
Bonus fun fact I only just thought of: the rule that "holograms must report deactivated" was only added in Glossary 1.8 (not in Voyager, not in Holodeck Adventures, but a full year later).

There is some evidence that the change was accidental -- that someone wrote the words without realizing that it was a change. In CRD 2002.10.28, Decipher noted every change in Glossary 1.8 that had a substantive impact on gameplay... but "holograms must report deactivated" was not mentioned.

Yet Glossary 1.8 was pretty much the end of the road for Decipher. There were two more monthly CRDs, then Second Edition came out, and there appear to have been two extremely scanty CRDs in 2003, and then that was it. So stuff that appeared in Glossary 1.8 became writ and habit for the next decade --even stuff that just kinda popped up out of nowhere, like "Holograms must report activated."
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