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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#566391
I am very much behind making Villagers with Torches an OTF Rule and adding adding it to the Ban List as a result.

The rule should include both [1E-S] and [1E-P] and the hidden bonus of needing 6 personnel to do [1E-S] [1E-P] missions. Consider this, most non- [Bor] players using [Ref] cards are playing with QT:CW so they have this built in ( [Bor] don't attempt missions) and also [1E-TNG] [Bor] have a 3 personnel per scouting attempt requirement as well. Only those not playing with a [Ref] deck would be affected.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#566392
villagers shouldnt be an otf rule. there are many dilemmas that punish redshirting. they all be obsolete by then.
and QCW would be pretty much free then.
not exactly the way to drop [Ref] from the meta.

that said, the meta is alredy faster than the mind of some players. [Ref] is hardly played and barely oppressive.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#566393
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:33 am I am very much behind making Villagers with Torches an OTF Rule and adding adding it to the Ban List as a result.

The rule should include both [1E-S] and [1E-P] and the hidden bonus of needing 6 personnel to do [1E-S] [1E-P] missions. Consider this, most non- [Bor] players using [Ref] cards are playing with QT:CW so they have this built in ( [Bor] don't attempt missions) and also [1E-TNG] [Bor] have a 3 personnel per scouting attempt requirement as well. Only those not playing with a [Ref] deck would be affected.
No. Just, no.

Redshirting is a strategy as old as the game itself. Don't Like it? Run counters, of which there are myriad options (Villagers is one, and not necessarily even the best one).

Hell, ever see I tried to warn you land? It's rare, but when it hits it's glorious.

There's some great walls out there. Plenty of options to keep a redshirting opponent from redshirting.

Rules should provide a framework for playing the game, not direct players in *how* they should play the game.

If *how* players are playing the game is an issue, then to the extent change is needed, it should be on Design to create new cards and associated (dis)incentives for the players to deal with.

:twocents:
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#566394
Armus wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:26 am
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:33 am I am very much behind making Villagers with Torches an OTF Rule and adding adding it to the Ban List as a result.

The rule should include both [1E-S] and [1E-P] and the hidden bonus of needing 6 personnel to do [1E-S] [1E-P] missions. Consider this, most non- [Bor] players using [Ref] cards are playing with QT:CW so they have this built in ( [Bor] don't attempt missions) and also [1E-TNG] [Bor] have a 3 personnel per scouting attempt requirement as well. Only those not playing with a [Ref] deck would be affected.
No. Just, no.

Redshirting is a strategy as old as the game itself. Don't Like it? Run counters, of which there are myriad options (Villagers is one, and not necessarily even the best one).

Hell, ever see I tried to warn you land? It's rare, but when it hits it's glorious.

There's some great walls out there. Plenty of options to keep a redshirting opponent from redshirting.

Rules should provide a framework for playing the game, not direct players in *how* they should play the game.

If *how* players are playing the game is an issue, then to the extent change is needed, it should be on Design to create new cards and associated (dis)incentives for the players to deal with.

:twocents:
Perhaps I am in the minority here, and that's fine, but at least we are talking about it and that is productive. Anyone else have comments on specific [Ref] 's?
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#566395
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:33 am I am very much behind making Villagers with Torches an OTF Rule and adding adding it to the Ban List as a result.
I hate this. :)

Villagers is, in my mind, the *perfect* example of a meta seed card (especially once the [Ref] is removed). One seed card that lets you assume all your planet combos have three people minimum. And the reason a [HA] is better than a rule is that the opponent still gets the option to take the risk and redshirt - we're not taking options away, we're letting players (on both sides) to balance their personal risk/reward, and make interesting choices about how to spend those thirty seed cards.
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By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#566396
AllenGould wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:26 pm
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:33 am I am very much behind making Villagers with Torches an OTF Rule and adding adding it to the Ban List as a result.
I hate this. :)

Villagers is, in my mind, the *perfect* example of a meta seed card (especially once the [Ref] is removed). One seed card that lets you assume all your planet combos have three people minimum. And the reason a [HA] is better than a rule is that the opponent still gets the option to take the risk and redshirt - we're not taking options away, we're letting players (on both sides) to balance their personal risk/reward, and make interesting choices about how to spend those thirty seed cards.
+1. Redshirting needs to stay.
Once other issues are fixed there will be easier to make meta calls for the things you dislike or are concerned about derailing your own deck. Right now a big issue is just too many counters. Counters are OK; but we can't have tons of them be required... :twocents:
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566398
Iron Prime wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:33 pm
AllenGould wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:26 pm
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:33 am I am very much behind making Villagers with Torches an OTF Rule and adding adding it to the Ban List as a result.
I hate this. :)

Villagers is, in my mind, the *perfect* example of a meta seed card (especially once the [Ref] is removed). One seed card that lets you assume all your planet combos have three people minimum. And the reason a [HA] is better than a rule is that the opponent still gets the option to take the risk and redshirt - we're not taking options away, we're letting players (on both sides) to balance their personal risk/reward, and make interesting choices about how to spend those thirty seed cards.
+1. Redshirting needs to stay.
Once other issues are fixed there will be easier to make meta calls for the things you dislike or are concerned about derailing your own deck. Right now a big issue is just too many counters. Counters are OK; but we can't have tons of them be required... :twocents:
Do you mean like Quinn, Kevin Uxbridge, etc? Honestly I feel they are underplayed. Most people are surprised if I play one. I'd prefer Oof! to lose the ref icon and errata Fightin' Words to allow it to be nullified with normal counters (incl Miss Q).
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#566401
I don't think he meant counters like genreal purpose Kevin/Amanda, but hard counters to specific strategies.

IE, I need to stock Counter A to handle strategy X, and I need 2 of counter B incase they are playing Y, etc.


________

To me how I look at it is; It it's a strategy that we think shouldn't exist and only does because of old rules/mistakes? (Q-Bypass, all space or planet)

Is it a deck choice that if not counters will crush the opponent with no chance? (DQSS)

That's where rules and bannings/errta are better then counters.

Redshirting and things like that are, I agree where counters shine. I like the idea of a metacall of Villagers with torches, et. Because I can also construct different dilemmas, or fight it on a different axis.
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566409
KazonPADD wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:12 pm 1) Remove Ref icon from Defend Homeworld (redundant due to Strategema)
2) Make Containment Field unable to leave play
1) is ok to me. Yet i still think Defend Homeworlds offensive would still be there and would love to see that gone too. (download HQ cards or a security once per game would be great.
2) agreed 131%

Regarding topic removing all [Ref] cards:
I´d love when Access Denied, Feedback Surge, Scorched hand and Oof stayed, or if removed where substituted by cards/rules or errats of the cards they prevent. Villagers with torches maybe too.

Thanks for reading have a good day :)
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