[Hoss-Drone]

The game is a better GAME without the Referee Mechanic. Or the need for the Referee Mechanic.

Come on.

I'd find this argument a lot more convincing if there weren't multiple cards baked into the OTF rules.

If it's just an issue of the Mechanic itself, why not make *all* the cards OTF rules and be done with it?

Because scorched hand shouldn't be a rule. But it, the juggler and obelisk of masaka are cards I do think would be great to be boosted by and more inclusion in

[Armus]

The game is a better GAME without the Referee Mechanic. Or the need for the Referee Mechanic.

Come on.

I'd find this argument a lot more convincing if there weren't multiple cards baked into the OTF rules.

If it's just an issue of the Mechanic itself, why not make *all* the cards OTF rules and be done with it?

Because scorched hand shouldn't be a rule. But it, the juggler and obelisk of masaka are cards I do think would be great to be boosted by and more inclusion in

Ok, fair enough, but why not make the same case for Fair Play, Intermix Ratio, The Big Picture, General Quarters, and You Are a Monument? Why should those be rules other than "because somebody running 1e said so"?

Like... what would the world look like if we broomed ALL of the Ref cards from the rules AND removed the icon?

All the lines I've seen drawn have seemed pretty arbitrary. What I haven't seen, and what I think would really help the overall debate, is what is the standard that should be used for making a card a rule, keeping the card as-is, and removing the icon and letting a card stand on its own?

[AllenGould]

Ok, fair enough, but why not make the same case for Fair Play, Intermix Ratio, The Big Picture, General Quarters, and You Are a Monument? Why should those be rules other than "because somebody running 1e said so"?

Like... what would the world look like if we broomed ALL of the Ref cards from the rules AND removed the icon?

All the lines I've seen drawn have seemed pretty arbitrary.

Oh, they're 100% arbitrary - no different from "why do you need 100 points to win, and not 90, 110, or the current Walmart stock price?"

All of them are answers from various points in time to "what is the correct way to play the game?"

Fair Play says "attempting your opponent's missions is Bad And Wrong." (Never mind that we printed double-sided missions, occasionally with different details on the opposing side!)

Intermix Ratio says "not attempting your missions and just doing bonus points is Bad And Wrong" (Never mind that Cytherian Shuffle was listed *in the strategy guide*!)

General Quarters says "yes, we printed a bazillion download abilities, but being greedy is Bad And Wrong" (Never mind who printed all those bazillion download abilities that stack!)

Monument says "Turtling in another quadrant is Bad.. " - you get the idea.

But all of these are decisions of what the Good and Correct Way To Play are, and the original OTF rules are a compromise of various regional opinions on what is Right and Proper. I know I disagree with at least two of them (waffling on a third).

[BCSWowbagger]

I think cards are much less bad than they were a few years ago.

At the time, they were a mandatory include in all decks at all levels, which meant that you couldn't bring someone new into an OTF constructed game without explaining this just... this horrifying wall of timing, text, and rules trickery. stuff is cognitively hard, and shoving that all upfront at the start (the start!) of every game was just atrocious. Even worse was the fact that none of it was fun -- it was just timing and cycling nonsense in order to let Design avoid the hard choice of fixing the underlying problems. Instead of solving missions and assimilating all who dare oppose me, I'm sitting over here doing a bunch of game-state masturbation to make sure Obelisk gives me a Masaka when I need it to (to say nothing of Containment Field).

But changes in recent years have led to a lot less of that, even in games that include dual Ref piles. Today, I think they're doing some decent meta-policing work (and I myself stock a Civil War tent roughly once every year)... but I think they're mostly being used as a way to get Defend Homeworld + a bag of other defensive and offensive tricks at a discount. That's still not good, IMO, for basically the reasons Paddy suggested (and I basically agree with Paddy's suggested remedies)... but I no longer wake up every morning, look out at the sunrise, and think, "Today is a good day to destroy the mechanic."

[Hoss-Drone]

I think cards are much less bad than they were a few years ago.

At the time, they were a mandatory include in all decks at all levels, which meant that you couldn't bring someone new into an OTF constructed game without explaining this just... this horrifying wall of timing, text, and rules trickery. stuff is cognitively hard, and shoving that all upfront at the start (the start!) of every game was just atrocious. Even worse was the fact that none of it was fun -- it was just timing and cycling nonsense in order to let Design avoid the hard choice of fixing the underlying problems. Instead of solving missions and assimilating all who dare oppose me, I'm sitting over here doing a bunch of game-state masturbation to make sure Obelisk gives me a Masaka when I need it to (to say nothing of Containment Field).

But changes in recent years have led to a lot less of that, even in games that include dual Ref piles. Today, I think they're doing some decent meta-policing work (and I myself stock a Civil War tent roughly once every year)... but I think they're mostly being used as a way to get Defend Homeworld + a bag of other defensive and offensive tricks at a discount. That's still not good, IMO, for basically the reasons Paddy suggested (and I basically agree with Paddy's suggested remedies)... but I no longer wake up every morning, look out at the sunrise, and think, "Today is a good day to destroy the mechanic."

[Hoss-Drone]

I think cards are much less bad than they were a few years ago.

At the time, they were a mandatory include in all decks at all levels, which meant that you couldn't bring someone new into an OTF constructed game without explaining this just... this horrifying wall of timing, text, and rules trickery. stuff is cognitively hard, and shoving that all upfront at the start (the start!) of every game was just atrocious. Even worse was the fact that none of it was fun -- it was just timing and cycling nonsense in order to let Design avoid the hard choice of fixing the underlying problems. Instead of solving missions and assimilating all who dare oppose me, I'm sitting over here doing a bunch of game-state masturbation to make sure Obelisk gives me a Masaka when I need it to (to say nothing of Containment Field).

But changes in recent years have led to a lot less of that, even in games that include dual Ref piles. Today, I think they're doing some decent meta-policing work (and I myself stock a Civil War tent roughly once every year)... but I think they're mostly being used as a way to get Defend Homeworld + a bag of other defensive and offensive tricks at a discount. That's still not good, IMO, for basically the reasons Paddy suggested (and I basically agree with Paddy's suggested remedies)... but I no longer wake up every morning, look out at the sunrise, and think, "Today is a good day to destroy the mechanic."

Help it along though James! One thing that might need policing still is STP/brunt shuttle/etc drop decks. ... But even that is questionable.

[BCSWowbagger]

I'm not arguing with that.

My opinions from this thread are largely unchanged from 2018. (TLDR: I think we still need to figure out solutions for Villagers, Scorched, White Dep, and Obelisk before Ref can really die.)

I just feel less urgent about them now.

[Ensign Q]

i think scorched hand could be on a or personnel.
defend homeworld should lose the
Its only a game ship drop could become an otf rule

that pretty much leaves us with ref as meta choice against kivas fajo and battledecks. (mirror image and strategema)

still not completely obsolete. to give greedy decks 2 more seeds?

what is the cytherian shuffle?

[KazonPADD]

Q’s Bigger Tent
Place atop one Q's Bigger Tent side deck (Villagers With Torches, White Deprivation, Obelisk of Masaka, Scorched Hand and up to 13 other different non- cards) during the seed phase (and your Q’s Tent is closed). Q's Bigger Tent is now open and in play; cards you download may come from here. Once each turn, in place of one card draw, you may download one card from here.

[Armus]

Y'all leaving out Containment Field in a -rich meta is a fucking sin.

It needs to get kicked in the dick on the discard front, but a throttle is absolutely something that needs to exist in the game.

[pfti]

Y'all leaving out Containment Field in a -rich meta is a fucking sin.

It needs to get kicked in the dick on the discard front, but a throttle is absolutely something that needs to exist in the game.

Science!

[KazonPADD]

Sure, Kick it in the dick first, then we let it in!

[geraldkw]

I'm not arguing with that.

My opinions from this thread are largely unchanged from 2018. (TLDR: I think we still need to figure out solutions for Villagers, Scorched, White Dep, and Obelisk before Ref can really die.)

I just feel less urgent about them now.

Villagers Solution: Errata "I tried to Warn you" to 2 or fewer personnel." Q stuff is easy now. I am not really serious...

Also we really really should never remove "Fair Play" "Intermix Ratio" or "The Big Picture" effects from the rules. Delta should be fixed another way(nerfing the points on the missions) and get rid of YAAM.

[AllenGould]

Villagers Solution: Errata "I tried to Warn you" to 2 or fewer personnel." Q stuff is easy now. I am not really serious...

Honestly, I think a non-[Ref] Villagers is still a perfectly solid card. If you're willing to pay the seed slot, it's effectively an extra dilemma under every mission.

[FranklinKenter]

...
So let's again figure this out:. What is left to be done to make referee go dinosaur?
...

Since this is on my notepad, I'll share it:

List of effects on current cards

Mirror Image: Select cards affect all players
Villagers with Torches: You can’t attempt a planet mission with fewer than three personnel.
Access Denied: Establish Gateway can’t target your missions.
Containment Field: Special downloads and select cards have an additional cost / Select cards are banned.
Feedback Surge: Establish Gateway can’t target your missions / select already banned card is banned.
HQ: Orbital Weapons Platform : Moot.
Intruder Alert! : Intruders require three or more personnel.
It's only a Game: Report with crew and select already errata'd/still banned cards are limited.
Obelisk of Masaka: Staffing requirements are increased for select ships.
Panel Overload: Select cards are banned and/or have additional costs.
Q The Referee: Everything
Reactor Overload: Select card is errata'd / Select personnel can’t board opponent’s ships or facilities without proper penalty or precaution.
Scanner Interference: Select cards have additional costs.
Strategema: Select cards are banned / you can’t attack or affect the opponent at a homeworld.
White Deprivation: Jem’Hadar require upkeep.
Writ of Accountability: Select cards are limited.
Oof!: Selected errata’d cards have an additional penalty if played.
Scortched Hand: Hand limit is 12
The Juggler: Stacking your deck requires a reshuffle.
Defend Homeworld: Moot!

The following effects are sufficient to leave on a card without its nature (e.g., just let them play without a enabler):

Mirror Image: Select cards affect all players
Access Denied: Establish Gateway can’t target your missions.
Feedback Surge: Establish Gateway can’t target your missions / select already banned card is banned.
HQ: Orbital Weapons Platform : Moot.
Obelisk of Masaka: Staffing requirements are increased for select ships.
Reactor Overload: Select card is errata'd / ...
Panel Overload: Select cards are banned and/or have additional costs.
Strategema: Select cards are banned / ...
White Deprivation: Jem’Hadar require upkeep.
Writ of Accountability: Select cards are limited.
Oof!: Selected errata’d cards have an additional penalty if played.
Scortched Hand: Hand limit is 12
The Juggler: Stacking your deck requires a reshuffle.
Defend Homeworld: Moot

The following effects should be converted to rules or fixed in another manner

Villagers with Torches: You can’t attempt a planet mission with fewer than three personnel.
Containment Field: Special downloads and select cards have an additional cost / Select cards are banned.
Intruder Alert! : Intruders require three or more personnel.
It's only a Game: Report with crew and select already errata'd/still banned cards are limited.
Reactor Overload: ... / Select personnel can’t board opponent’s ships or facilities without proper penalty or precaution.
Strategema: ... / you can’t attack or affect the opponent at a homeworld.

The following effects are too parasitic to keep:

Q The Referee: Everything
Scanner Interference: (download pollution)

Proposed Changes:

Blanket rule that any mission or scouting attempt must have three or more personnel. (Villagers with Torches)

Errata Invasive Beam-In to once each turn (e.g., you beam in xor you beam out.) (Intruder Alert! And Reactor Overload)

Errata Hidden Fighter. (Containment Field)

Extend the General Quarters rule to include (e.g., you can't download personnel or use if you have previously done either that turn). (Containment Field)

Errata Static Warp Bubble and Telepathic Alien Kidnappers and Destroy Radioactive Garbage Scow. (Containment Field)

Blanket rule limiting report with crew to ship plus four cards. (It's Only A Game)

Blanket rule prohibiting an opponent from targeting cards (battle or otherwise) at a matching homeworld. (Strategema; incidentally this fixes Defend Homeworld too)

Resulting Banned cards:

Containment Field
Q the Referee
Tribunal of Q
Scanner Interference

Specific Proposed Errata:

Invasive Beam-In: Once each turn, ...
Hidden Fighter: (once per game per affiliation a la Going to the Top)
Static Warp Bubble: only effects an opponent if they have more than four cards in hand.
Telepathic Alien Kidnappers: you draw two cards if guessed correctly (no discard).
Destroy Radioactive Garbage Scow: Nullifies Scow. You lose points; if you solve that mission this turn, opponent loses points instead.
HQ: Orbital Weapons Platform: ...battle *at an adjacent location*... fires upon an opposing ship *there*...