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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#565455
Branching off the smooth as an androids bottom thread....

As long as obelisk into masaka exist I strongly question getting anywhere close to hexany coming back. So it begs the question yet again:. Do we really need referee cards anymore? Seeding obelisk to make your hexany go seems fair bc you also dont get DH, etc. I also advocate strongly for scanner Interference coming back and agree, the ref can/should come off it.

So let's again figure this out:. What is left to be done to make referee go dinosaur?
What I got so far to get started.

- Keep it intact for open. So that means that tribunal and qtr would just need to be banned.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#565456
1) Remove Ref icon from Defend Homeworld (redundant due to Strategema)
2) Make Containment Field unable to leave play
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By PantsOfTheTalShiar (Jason Tang)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#565460
Why does the referee mechanic need to go away? What's so bad about it?

Edit: I know this question makes it look like I'm trolling and/or a dumbass, but I seriously want people to answer this in their own words.
StateofSTCCG, who is currently listed as a forum troll [unconstructive and disruptive behavior], made this post. Responding to forum trolls is discouraged.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#565462
I love these Ref Questions. It makes me think what the hell happen to this game when it was a game back in 1999. [Self]
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#565465
PantsOfTheTalShiar wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:47 pm Why does the referee mechanic need to go away? What's so bad about it?

Edit: I know this question makes it look like I'm trolling and/or a dumbass, but I seriously want people to answer this in their own words.
Ref is just cheese these days, it’s become the thing it was supposed to eliminate. People treat it as a free seed in exchange for DH and then just force opponent to discard cards because of CF cheese. Remove those two elements, players stop using it.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#565467
the refpile is not as free these days, because QT:CW comes with 2 major downsides. no redshirting and no Q-Tent use. and without CW you will have to chose carefully which you want.
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#565468
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:11 pm the refpile is not as free these days, because QT:CW comes with 2 major downsides. no redshirting and no Q-Tent use. and without CW you will have to chose carefully which you want.
Yep, I really dislike QT:CW. Honestly I think getting rid of QT:CW would be a good test of whether ref cards matter enough if people start putting them in the regular tent.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#565470
you need good reason to include cw and the other refcards already. there is definitely no reason to ban anything. many decks are cutting the refprotection, which allows cheesy decks like mass [1E-AU] ship drops to creep up again.
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#565471
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:29 pm you need good reason to include cw and the other refcards already. there is definitely no reason to ban anything. many decks are cutting the refprotection, which allows cheesy decks like mass [1E-AU] ship drops to creep up again.
That's fair I hate STP drop.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#565526
Eh...I stopped using the Civil War ref stuff. In fairness, it's because I didn't see the value when playing in my own playgroup and that may be different if I played people in other groups.

But, for the most part, I do agree that ref cards ruin the fun game in a lot of ways. I know back in like 99 00 01 or whenever I stopped playing, it was Writ of Accountability that basically killed the game for me. Yes, it was cheesy to get out a ho'rgon or whatver and run a bunch of kivas fajo's on a red alert, but there were other ways to get rid of that playstyle. I think the CC does a decent job of killing off game killing cards or mechanics, so I wouldn't be altogether sad if the Q the ref and that whole lot got the banhammer or erattad to something less silly.
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#565532
PantsOfTheTalShiar wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:47 pm Why does the referee mechanic need to go away? What's so bad about it?

Edit: I know this question makes it look like I'm trolling and/or a dumbass, but I seriously want people to answer this in their own words.
It's just another thing to learn, manage and remember. If a strategy is abusive enough to warrant a whole game mechanic just to counter it, then there should probably be a rule or ban or errata to deal with it (all three of which have been done). If it isn't, then make some cards that you can pack to deal with whatever cheese happens to be in flavor. As it is you have dedicated a whole class of cards and rules for some -- but not all -- cheese and that in some cases has become cheese itself, as someone already pointed out.

I think the CC has done a pretty good job reducing the need to for a referee over time and that is positive, in my opinion.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#565535
PantsOfTheTalShiar wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:47 pm Why does the referee mechanic need to go away? What's so bad about it?
I was going to write a big history lesson, and then realized that James probably already has it written somewhere :cheersL: , and it obscures the actual key point:

[Ref] is bad because rather than fixing broken shit, it puts the onus on you - the opponent - to clog your deck up with a bunch of cards so you can pass the save-or-die check if your opponent tries something.

There's a bunch of other layers (the fact that a lot of [Ref] cards have offensive uses, and Tribunal and Referee mean that it's a bona-fide draw/cycling engine on it's own, for instance), but the core problem is - if we have something broken, the solution isn't to print a card that every *other* deck has to run in perpetuity.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#565536
phaserihardlyknowher wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:33 pm
PantsOfTheTalShiar wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:47 pm Why does the referee mechanic need to go away? What's so bad about it?

Edit: I know this question makes it look like I'm trolling and/or a dumbass, but I seriously want people to answer this in their own words.
It's just another thing to learn, manage and remember. If a strategy is abusive enough to warrant a whole game mechanic just to counter it, then there should probably be a rule or ban or errata to deal with it (all three of which have been done). If it isn't, then make some cards that you can pack to deal with whatever cheese happens to be in flavor. As it is you have dedicated a whole class of cards and rules for some -- but not all -- cheese and that in some cases has become cheese itself, as someone already pointed out.

I think the CC has done a pretty good job reducing the need to for a referee over time and that is positive, in my opinion.

+1. The entire point of a tournament format vs an open format is to be very cautious about what is allowed in so as to keep the playing field relatively level and stable while also being something nof an entry point to the game. Cards should be worded consistent and anything that requires a silver bullet should be totally out.
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First Edition Art Manager
By jjh (Johnny Holeva)
 - First Edition Art Manager
 -  
#565537
The game is a better GAME without the Referee Mechanic. Or the need for the Referee Mechanic.

Come on.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#565538
jjh wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:40 pm The game is a better GAME without the Referee Mechanic. Or the need for the Referee Mechanic.

Come on.
I'd find this argument a lot more convincing if there weren't multiple [Ref] cards baked into the OTF rules.

If it's just an issue of the [Ref] Mechanic itself, why not make *all* the [Ref] cards OTF rules and be done with it?
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