This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
User avatar
First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#565867
Welcome to your latest Friday Question!

This one stems from the work done around Project Rogue. Khan’s buddy Joaquin is listed as genetically engineered and an augment. However his son, Joachim, is neither. Khan and company are due to feature in the second set from Project Rogue: Paradise Lost. But should augment and/or genetically engineered be inherited traits? If we create new members of Khan’s Reliant crew, should they be augments? Were they also genetically engineered or does that only apply to their parents?

Let us know your views!
User avatar
 
By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#565874
My opinion: Augment can be an inherited trait, as their genome has been augmented, just in a previous generation. Genetically engineered should only apply to those whose original genome has been manipulated.

That being said, if the manipulated genome is transmissible, should the bearer of that genome be held as a Genetically engineered being? I have seen fiction where that is true. Honor Harrington is dozens of generations from her line`s original augmentation, yet she is still considered a Genie (derogatory term for Genetically Engineered Being in her universe). But this is because her augmentation is intended be passed to all of the recipients` children even if unaugmented genetic stock is introduced with out dilution.

I think I just argued myself into a "Both Yes" opinion.
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#565878
In a purely practical sense, it's hard to argue that Joachim isn't somehow different from a normal human. His attributes alone are evidence that he's something more. It sounds like these terms have some game-play implications, but obviously we don't yet know what they are. Would it help offset his very high stats?
User avatar
 
By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#565879
For clarification: "genetically engineered" doesn't do anything yet, right?

(I'm confused because "genetically enhanced" does do something (but Joaquin isn't that.))
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#565887
patrick wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:47 am For clarification: "genetically engineered" doesn't do anything yet, right?
In terms of gameplay mechanics, that's correct. "Genetically engineered" does not do anything, and it never will. It's pure lore. But lore matters!

Augment and genetically enhanced both matter. Next question: what's the difference? The Glossary explains:
genetically enhanced wrote:Genetically engineered personnel [incl. Augments] have genetic alterations from conception, while genetically enhanced personnel were born normal but later received genetic modifications.
I do tend agree with @phaserihardlyknowher that the high attributes on Team Khan TMP is evidence that Decipher, at least, viewed the augmentation as heritable. (They just didn't know it would be a keyword in the future -- the word Augment wouldn't even be coined until 2004, several years after this set!) But that's just my :twocents: .
User avatar
 
By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#565902
Memory Alpha lists him as an augment, and that's true in the novels as well (a source that Decipher used for lore before). He aged quicker then a non-modified person.

Combine that with his attributes clearly showing non-baseline human, and I see no reason that he and the rest of the Reliant people shouldn't be at least augments.
 
By Tosk
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#565947
While we're on the topic, what do I have to do to get Roga Danar recognized as Augment, Genetically Enhanced, or any relevant game term?
User avatar
 
By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#565950
Tosk wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:12 pm While we're on the topic, what do I have to do to get Roga Danar recognized as Augment, Genetically Enhanced, or any relevant game term?
Did you try to take him out for Danar and a movie?
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#565952
Tosk wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:12 pm While we're on the topic, what do I have to do to get Roga Danar recognized as Augment, Genetically Enhanced, or any relevant game term?
Was Roga Danar genetically enhanced? I thought he was just given the super-soldier formula.
User avatar
 
By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#565959
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:37 pm
Tosk wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:12 pm While we're on the topic, what do I have to do to get Roga Danar recognized as Augment, Genetically Enhanced, or any relevant game term?
Was Roga Danar genetically enhanced? I thought he was just given the super-soldier formula.
From his Memory Alpha article:

Military service
Following the outbreak of the Tarsian War Danar volunteered for service in his planet's military. Like many other Angosian soldiers, he was subsequently subjected to intense physical and psychological conditioning and chemical manipulation. The effect of this was to cause his mental and physical abilities to become enhanced when danger was perceived. It also prevented his life signs from being detected through conventional means.

Sounds like super-soldier serum to me.
User avatar
 
By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#566088
It's all about if it's a good gameplay mechanic or not really. Does the game need them to be it or not? Then yes! If not, then no.

Could the different versions of Joachim have different keywords, of course! That's what gives the game possibilities and change.
 
By Tosk
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566154
Professor Scott wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:15 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:37 pm
Was Roga Danar genetically enhanced? I thought he was just given the super-soldier formula.
Sounds like super-soldier serum to me.
I'm not really concerned with HOW someone got to be a super-soldier, just that they ARE a super-soldier. I don't see why Khan's 12 Strength is somehow better than Roga Danar's 12 Strength. :?

And at this point there are relatively few cards that this would impact anyway, but I'm thinking ahead and hold out hopes that there might be some neat interrupts or other cards that key off of the physical and mental superiority of these enhanced individuals.

I also understand that there is meant to be narrow design space for cards that are specific to groups that would know and work together, but from what I can see this is already established by "Khan-related" and "Genetically Enhanced" ( [1E-DS9] ) to differentiate. So what do we need "Augment" for that leaves out a bunch of non-Jem-Hadar super-soldiers who would logically be as capable of super-soldier tactics and abilities as WW3-Augments?

Just one casual player's opinion, I'm sure the experts have their reasons.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566354
Whether genetic modifications are inheritable is that it depends, I think--for example with how they affect reproductive cells. Barring something more definitive about the engineering used for Augments, as @phaserihardlyknowher noted, we could take the cue from Joachim's stats and roll with it.

Trying to suss out the overlaps and distinctions among the various terms related to genetic engineering, I'd hedge that the distinction the Glossary makes for "genetically enhanced" ("were born normal but later received genetic modifications") doesn't align with real-world usage, referencing the Wikipedia article on human genetic enhancement (also labeled "human genetic engineering").

I'd also hedge that Bashir can be considered to be "genetically engineered" even though he underwent genetic engineering after he was born. As well as in-universe he said seemed to be referencing himself with "They don't put people away for being genetically engineered" ("Statistical Probabilities"). Would his offspring be genetically engineered? I think it's then back to a situation like with Joachim, it depends on the modifications.
1EFQ: Game of two halves

Honestly, I don’t think I’ve re[…]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Happy birthday to @Takket ! :D :thumbsup: […]

Opponents turn

Remodulation

It started in mid-2013. At that time it became sta[…]