This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By martok88
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E World Champion 2023
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Champion 2024
1E British National Champion 2023
1E Swedish National Runner-Up 2018
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2023
#569034
I'd vote for removing [Ref] and [HA] . Both make sense: fading out unnecessary [Ref] cards is generally good. Removing [HA] makes that deck type quite obvious. And frankly, if you don't even see it coming then, you deserve to get overrun by it :)

I would leave the possibility for the unlimited mass download in there. If you don't, a creative and competitive deck type gets eliminated. This should never happen. Decks like this prevent 1e from becoming boring speed solver solitaire.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#569102
james only pulled of worlds, because people are too greedy to run quinns or amandas.
its not an issue of DH
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#569123
The real problematic part of the DH the way it was used in worlds was that the opponent had no real choice in the whole thing and the wording made the card usable in an unintended situation. Guessing, but it seems the intent of the main function of Defend Homeworld is to be a shield and a punishment for attacking a homeworld. That should be an open choice. If you could just add "voluntarily initiated" it would fix the problematic part. Simple.

If the CC also wanted to address it's overuse, I'd add once per game you could do either and not both functions.
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
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#569126
The last function, allowing a personnel or HQ download should be on a card that still has a [Ref] icon. I think having this as a [Ref] card encourages a lot of people who might not otherwise use a seed slot for Tribunal of Q to put that in, and/or to use Q's Tent:Civil War rather than the original.

This, in turn, prevents people from trying most of the cheese ball nonsense that [Ref] cards address. If we saw 20% fewer decks having [Ref] cards because you took away this very small incentive, you would see more cheese overall.

Basically, lots of people go "Oh, I have to wait one turn to get my SECURITY personnel download, but it doesn't cost me a seed slot, and I get to have all these [Ref] cards just in case." This is a very good thing overall.

As far as the whole tricking someone into attacking you goes, I would limit the quantity but NOT attach any restrictions on whether the attack is voluntary.

It makes TOTAL trek sense that if your opponent can trick you into firing first and starting a war, bad things happen to you. This is basically the Romulan MO (only in the Neutral Zone, rather than actually at Romulus) every time Picard and company are dealing with them. Also, it's literally the plot of the TNG episode Conundrum, from which that card is drawn.

Removing the hidden agenda component limiting it to space battles and/or 3-4 ships is a better way to deal with this being a bit on the overmighty side.

That said, this is fairly hard to pull off. The The Issue is Patriotism only works if your opponent (1) has a ship or away team at the homeworld (2) this is the only place both players have away teams where an attack can take place. Incoming Message: Attack Authorizationn works against only one affiliation. And Conundrum is an [1E-AU] card that can be nixed by Timepod Ring or Guinan and is not that hard to get past.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#569153
WeAreBack wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:36 pm That said, this is fairly hard to pull off. The The Issue is Patriotism only works if your opponent (1) has a ship or away team at the homeworld (2) this is the only place both players have away teams where an attack can take place. Incoming Message: Attack Authorizationn works against only one affiliation. And Conundrum is an [1E-AU] card that can be nixed by Timepod Ring or Guinan and is not that hard to get past.
have u seen james deck?
there are multiple ways to relocate ppl to your homeworld during a mission attempt. with or without ds9
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By aabecame
 - Alpha Quadrant
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#569154
Wouldn't it be easier to just replace the line:
you may download there any number of HQ cards and compatible ships, leaders, SECURITY personnel, and hand weapons.
With
you may download there any number of HQ: Orbital Weapons Platforms (errata the Platforms to include the targeting of personnel on planet)?
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#569158
Ensign Q wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:26 pm have u seen james deck?
there are multiple ways to relocate ppl to your homeworld during a mission attempt. with or without ds9
Which are? Apart from the Chula stuff which requires DS9 for the relocation I only see Cytherians but that isn't a reliable way of relocation.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#569162
Ausgang wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:20 am
Ensign Q wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:26 pm have u seen james deck?
there are multiple ways to relocate ppl to your homeworld during a mission attempt. with or without ds9
Which are? Apart from the Chula stuff which requires DS9 for the relocation I only see Cytherians but that isn't a reliable way of relocation.
gotta find out yourself ;)
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
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#569163
aabecame wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:03 pm Wouldn't it be easier to just replace the line:
you may download there any number of HQ cards and compatible ships, leaders, SECURITY personnel, and hand weapons.
With
you may download there any number of HQ: Orbital Weapons Platforms (errata the Platforms to include the targeting of personnel on planet)?
I love it. Either this, or remove the [HA] and do this plus 1-2 ships with crew.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#569459
aabecame wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:03 pm Wouldn't it be easier to just replace the line:
you may download there any number of HQ cards and compatible ships, leaders, SECURITY personnel, and hand weapons.
With
you may download there any number of HQ: Orbital Weapons Platforms (errata the Platforms to include the targeting of personnel on planet)?
I like this. It also encourages the defensive use of the battle bridge. (Something that every deck really should have, as it makes battles have some depth instead a pure check stats, know winner before starting.)
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By PantsOfTheTalShiar (Jason Tang)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#572684
Since the topic of Refs has come up in another thread recently, I thought I should finally get around to posting my thoughts on Defend Homeworld.

Let's consider why Defend Homeworld has the SECURITY download in the first place. It's what I'll call "dead card insurance." DH's first function is situational, so its designers gave it a second function that can be used in almost every game. That way, a player can include DH for its first function without the card being a dead card in matches where that function is irrelevant.

So let's say you have a card with both:
[SD] a function that's usable in only a subset of games, and
[SD] a function that's usable in every game
Which will get used more often? Of course DH's SECURITY download is going to be used more often than its homeworld protection download. That's a feature, not a bug. Not to mention that DH serves as a deterrent: its very existence reduces the likelihood of its first function ever triggering.

Now I know everyone's thinking by now, "well DH isn't even really needed for homeworld protection anymore since we have Strategema." Right, but DH has an additional role. By having both a [Ref] icon and an ability that's useful in every game, DH serves as dead card insurance for the entire Ref mechanic. It's the assurance of some ROI if you invest a seed slot into using Refs. So the gameplay impact of removing the Ref icon from DH will be to nerf the Ref mechanic and discourage players from using Refs.

Aannnnd... that's actually fine, if that's what the CC really wants to do. But if so, please write your article about how you want to discourage players from using Ref cards, because that is the gameplay impact of such a change.

If the CC really wants to nerf the Ref mechanic, I think there is better way to do so, which is to ban Tribunal of Q. Tribunal had an important job back when Refs were a lot more necessary, but now, so many of the current Ref issues are a result of Tribunal: repetitive play, Containment Field cycling, the fact that DH's SECURITY download is "free", etc. If players only have Q the Referee, then they have a resource to manage instead of a script to follow. This opens up the potential for interesting in-game decisions: e.g. If my opponent just played Kivas Fajo - Collector, do I want to cash in on some draws, or would I rather have a SECURITY download? Or should I save QRef in case my opponent STPs a ship under the influence of my Cytherians?

So Unpopular Opinion time: Defend Homeworld should be the LAST card to lose its Ref icon.

In the end, I don't really care about Defend Homeworld itself, I care about how the CC understands card designs. The fact that the CC considers "it's used offensively more often than defensively" to be a bug when it is in fact a feature explains a lot about how the CC struggles to make effective defensive or situational cards.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#572716
PantsOfTheTalShiar wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:42 am Now I know everyone's thinking by now, "well DH isn't even really needed for homeworld protection anymore since we have Strategema."
Problem is, Strategema proves the problem with the guaranteed utility - the reason we have it is because players took the easy utility use of DH, making it part of their Turn 1 plan... which meant they inevitably didn't have the homeworld protection when the armada arrived. So players were still getting borked, but somehow Decipher decided to make a second bullet rather than tell players "hey, the ability is there, maybe don't treat DH as a build-around".
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#572717
AllenGould wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:11 pm
PantsOfTheTalShiar wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:42 am Now I know everyone's thinking by now, "well DH isn't even really needed for homeworld protection anymore since we have Strategema."
Problem is, Strategema proves the problem with the guaranteed utility - the reason we have it is because players took the easy utility use of DH, making it part of their Turn 1 plan... which meant they inevitably didn't have the homeworld protection when the armada arrived. So players were still getting borked, but somehow Decipher decided to make a second bullet rather than tell players "hey, the ability is there, maybe don't treat DH as a build-around".
Lets also remember that Stragema was AGT's final FU to what designers saw a the list of supercheese. I am not sure we can accept it as well reasoned design

It wasnt just a hamar, it was an atomic bomb
 
By Dunnagh (Andreas Micheel)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Contender
#572728
One of the problems with the defensive capability of this card is that several decks rely on being able to pull that SECURITY out - and it´s still quite popular to design SECURITY that enable some decks.
Deyos was instrumental to DOM Decks - and Telak was the only way to get a ROM cybernetics out.

So obviously, the second ability of Defend Homeworld wasnt used much - most people dont run battle decks that go for your homeworld - so you wouldnt just keep it lying around just for the remote possibility that your opponent DOES attack you.

Also, people often forgot that [HA] cards enter face down - so downloading once the opponent attacked isnt working. (note to @BCSWowbagger - the [HA] icon doesnt appear in the online rulebook under "icons with built-in rules" but I think it should).

So if there is an abusive strategy that can easily be solved by adding "voluntarily" to Defend Homeworld, I dont see why we should remove the [Ref] icon. The "download a SEC" is not [Ref] -worthy as it doesnt protect you against your opponent but only helps you set up your game engine - so I guess a case could be made for removing the icon - not for balancing purposes but for "cleaning up [Ref] "-purposes
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#572731
Dunnagh wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:23 am Also, people often forgot that [HA] cards enter face down - so downloading once the opponent attacked isnt working.
But isn't the downloading a "suspencion of play", and the [HA] -activation at the speed of "direct response"? Which would actually make it work?
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