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By SirDan (Dan Hamman)
 - Shipping Manager
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#566103
This morning I added Defend Homeworld to the Watch List. This is a formality really, we've been discussing this card internally since at least mid-September (well before James expertly piloted his deck to a championship).
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#566110
1. I think the ref icon clearly needs to go - there's very little point in it any more. Strategma is the defensive card.

2. I personally like the combo existing of being able to force a battle and go crazy. I think it's good for a game that combos exist in general/theory. They should be easy to disrupt or at least not be a dominant deck, but they appeal strongly to a type of players that like building rube goldberg machines.

3. The combo might need to be watered down. Perhaps not grab the entire deck.

4. If it's actually banned, then I'll miss it. It's a staple in virtually every deck of mine for getting the security, especially Deyos in my Dominion deck, and I wish that a similar card existed for other classifications. (But not being able to use more then one.)

5. The fact that it is such a staple (I don't know if I've built more then a handful of decks without it since the card was printed) might be a red flag.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#566111
In a world where I had total control I would do the following:

1. Remove the [Ref] icon.
2. change the mass download to 3 ships with staffing (and nothing more)
3. Change the second function download to any personnel and draw no cards till end of turn.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#566119
Agree that [Ref] needs to go, the card is almost exclusively used offensively rather than defensively.

Beyond that I don't know if anything else needs to change. The game ought to have a few high-risk, high-reward showstopper combos and this one seems OK to me. James made a great meta call, built a solid deck, and played it well -- it's neither an autopilot win, nor unstoppable, nor unbeatable even if the combo goes off.

To Boromir's point, the fact that it's widely used doesn't mean that it's broken... but it does suggest we don't have to keep the [Ref] discounts and protection. It's a staple card, just pay for it like all your other staples. Whether it *should* be a staple card is another debate that goes way beyond the watchlist. I feel Defend Homeworld was bad for the game in many ways, and was one of the first signs of Decipher jumping the shark in terms of jumpstarts and downloads. But it's been a staple for SO long, and for over 20 years new cards have been designed around the assumption that SECURITY means easily accessible to everyone. A lot of things might break if it were taken away.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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1E The Void Regional Champion 2022
#566148
Here's a couple of thoughts to mull over.

1. Limit the download trigger to ONLY space battles. It doesn't follow the in-universe lore of the card to trigger on personnel battles.

2. I actually think the mass download is fine, but it shouldn't trigger if you were "forced" to battle. A quick errata would be "if opponent voluntarily attacked" or something to that effect.

3. Take away the seed OR take away the [Ref] icon. That way you can either seed it but not download it or download it but not seed it.

4. give it a countdown timer and take away the hidden agenda icon. It wouldnt affect the personnel download, but it would give it a "shield" function,which I actually think follows the in universe lore better. Like, yeah, go ahead and attack me and risk a mass download, or wait 3 turns so I can get ready for your attack. That's actually my favorite potential change. So you can seed it with the intention of downloading a person or take it out with your [Ref] icon for defense.
 
By Se7enofMine (ChadC)
 - Delta Quadrant
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Moderator
#566150
Thankfully its just on the watch list cause it seems a bit knee jerk. The card has been out for 20+ years and one person abused it one time.

Some of the change ideas above are fine and not overly reactive which is nice.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#566152
Se7enofMine wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:33 am Thankfully its just on the watch list cause it seems a bit knee jerk. The card has been out for 20+ years and one person abused it one time.

Some of the change ideas above are fine and not overly reactive which is nice.
This is factually incorrect.

This deck has been around at the World level since 2000. Heaney is hardly the first (and probably not the last) to trot it out for the big dance.
 
By Kander77 (Lee Sneathen)
 - Alpha Quadrant
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#566196
No more defending the homeworld eh?

👀
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
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#566331
Let´s keep it simple:
Defend Homeworld´s (ab)use is around since Trouble with tribble:

Two issues: 1) Ref icon makes this an offensive play instead of defensive, 2) combo with involuntary battle. Balance Team discussing possible changes.

1). Removing Ref and Hidden agenda, would warn beginners that this card is possible to download massive stuff and they would wisly decide not to voluntary attack

2) Offensive use by involuntary attack:
Downloading unlimited amount of leader/equipment/ships/HQ cards using cards that force to attack:
The issue is patriotism, Conundrum, Incoming Message: Attack Authorization Federation.

Possible Solutions for 2) the offensive use by involuntary attack:
Don´t let that happen by either:
- bann cards, or solve directly:
- Don´t let download stuff at all (use strategema or a simular function for DH)
- Don´t let download by adding the clause that the attack needs to be voluntary

Also note: Every compatible guy can walk into the headquarters. There is at the moment no defense by DefendHomeworld/Strategema against:
- capturing
- Tantalus field
- The art of diplomacy.
- Orbital Bombardment

When dealing with the issue I suggest taking that into account if you like to errata Defend Homeworld or produce any other card that deals with that, while we are at it. (if you consider it nesscary).
Last edited by ShipNerd on Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#566335
I was thinking of limiting the download count to the STRENGTH or WEAPONS used in the attack - but I'm pretty sure there isn't a way to fit that text on that already busy card.
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#568587
Suggestion for Defend Homeworld
I know this seems intrusive and influencing. Yet you might see that, this text is quite qualified to solve multiple problems at once, which is my hope, because i care. Not just those DH is on the watchinglist officialy but also some more issues experienced player know (see bellow). You are the bosses, of how this card should be. feel free to have a look, and discard or use parts you like. Kind Regards ShipNerd.
Defend Homeworld Errata (no Ref or Hidden agenda icon)
Seeds or plays on table. Once per game may download an SECURITY OR an HQ card. Also, prevents any player from initiate battle against a force containing a card matching that homeworld´s affiliation. Limits use of any player´s Capture, Orbital Bombardment, Outgunned, Tantalus Field and Dial Martok for Murder at homeworlds, Ocampa and Time Locations, to once per game per player.
Note: Solves:
1. Offensive use gone, because no reactive downloads possible. No Hidden Agenda so openly viewable to everyone.
2. Limits multiple overuse of offensive cards like Orbital Bombardment and Tantalus field. Many player are surprised, that a landed ship can use both Orbital Bombardment and Tantalus field to decimate personnel on any mission, even homeworlds, while they need Orbital Bombardment themselve to target a landet ship to defend themselves... Spacedoor turn one for landable Mirror Rebel Interceptor and e.g. Going to the top for James Tiberius Kirk for SD Tantalus field is usable in all non-themed decks...
3. Other cards are limited to once per game too, like Capture, Dial Martok for Murder or Outgunned. Strategema still has its use, for preventing outgunned, Ooby Dooby, Rouge Borg and Q planet all the time. Still makes Strategema as ref card less required.
4. You may use this usefull card instead of Referee Cards, as you also can simply play this card when needed (plays). But not as a surprise. You may also seed it and and use both function (Security download AND prevention) without discarding it and needing a 2nd copy.
5. Those who still use multiple ref cards will need to seed or play Defend Homeworld now, so no longer useing all refs + defend homeworld easily. (ref icon removed).
6. Text benefits both players. So no more prevent only attack on own homeworld and then reclcle ref card and surprise attack a beginner.
7. Also protects Time Locations and hotspot Ocampa, to a degree (limits some card use to once per game per player), but still allows regular combat there (unless already excluded by e.g. Text of Time Location on Vulcan and Earth).

There are more things to consider though. Offered it to Charlie who said I should talk to talk to Balance department but got no response.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#568597
Interesting to see where this goes. I don't mind losing the [Ref] .
SirDan, five posts in wrote: I realize I did what annoys me most. I posted about a card and did not share the link.
Defend Homeworld
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