This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.

Should George and Gracie be made romantic partners?

Yes!
13
30%
Sure, if you're reprinting or touching the card otherwise.
10
23%
No, whales don't respect "romance."
8
18%
No.
13
30%
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#566652
Armus wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:47 pm The problem with this statement is that it *is* a game mechanic. And a strong one at that.
Yes, and I thought it was a dumb idea then, and I think it's a dumb idea now. So I really don't see a reason to start errating it into more cards just so Feds can play house instead of getting eaten by Borg.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#566657
I voted no and I encourage you to vote no for the reasons others have given.

However, at the risk of encouraging "yes" by accident...
geraldkw wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:56 pm
Ensign Q wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:50 pm id rather see all the "missing" couples from premiere fixed first
Yes, do this.
The current policy is to fix these issues whenever the cards come up for the reprint / virtual promo treatment. There's really no question that, if Jenna D'Sora comes up for a reprint, her lore will be fixed to refer to Data. The only question is when Jenna will come up for reprint.

There are a lot of factors that go into deciding when a card comes up for reprint. Movies Block is coming out soon, which may have put the G&G question into Charlie's mind. Unlike with Jenna, it really is a question for them.

(But, trust me, gang, you don't want to stack even more draw power at Earth behind a Strategema.)
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
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1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#566660
I too voted yes, because from a TrekSense perspective it makes sense that as they were “mates” (part of the list of accepted terms for couples) in the film, their card should reflect that.

If there are concerns about balance (free points, easy Love Cafe draws) then Balance should address those concerns in the gametext, and let the lore provide a true reflection of their characteristics…
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#566662
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:48 pm I voted no and I encourage you to vote no for the reasons others have given.

However, at the risk of encouraging "yes" by accident...
geraldkw wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:56 pm
Ensign Q wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:50 pm id rather see all the "missing" couples from premiere fixed first
Yes, do this.
The current policy is to fix these issues whenever the cards come up for the reprint / virtual promo treatment. There's really no question that, if Jenna D'Sora comes up for a reprint, her lore will be fixed to refer to Data. The only question is when Jenna will come up for reprint.

There are a lot of factors that go into deciding when a card comes up for reprint. Movies Block is coming out soon, which may have put the G&G question into Charlie's mind. Unlike with Jenna, it really is a question for them.

(But, trust me, gang, you don't want to stack even more draw power at Earth behind a Strategema.)
wouldnt it be easier to have a global rule that enables lore about personnel when referred with their rank
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By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566668
I also voted yes. I don't think "balance" should be a reason not to change them. If romantic partners are too powerful, they should be balanced in a different way.

I found the following romantic partners references that currently do not work because of the "exact name" rule:
- Ba'el: "Lieutenant Worf"
- Dr. Soong: "Juliana"
- Ian Andrew Troi: "Lwaxana"
- Jenna D'Sora: "Lt. Commander Data"
- John Doe: "Dr. Crusher"
- Kareel Odan: "Dr. Beveryly Crusher"
- K'chiQ: "Lieutenant Worf" (does this one count?)
- K'Ehleyr: "Lieutenant Worf"
- Miles O'Brien: "Keiko" (doesn't matter, since all versions of Keiko O'Brien[/card1] name Miles O'Brien)
- Neela Daren: "Captain Jean-Luc Picard"
- Sarek: "Amanda"
- Soren: "Commander William T. Riker"
- Vash: "Captain Jean-Luc Picard"

Technically: Grilka since she refers to "Quark, Son of Keldar", not Quark Son of Keldar (comma, no comma), but Quark Son of Keldar mentions her, so it doesn't matter.

(Did I miss any?)

Most of these are Federation, so if these were all "fixed", I assume there would need to be some balancing anyway.
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566670
patrick wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:57 am
- K'chiQ: "Lieutenant Worf" (does this one count?)
thx for contributing your work.

No K´chiQ does not count, she would need a card titled Leutantent Worf.
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By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566671
ShipNerd wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:47 am
patrick wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:57 am
- K'chiQ: "Lieutenant Worf" (does this one count?)
thx for contributing your work.

No K´chiQ does not count, she would need a card titled Leutantent Worf.
Well, yes, but that's everything on that list. I meant, would she be a romantic partner if it said "ideal mate for Worf".
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566672
yes, changing the lore (removing Captain, Leutendend / Dr. and adding surname to match card titeles) would help for all of them to make them romantic partners, if that is wanted.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#566677
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:05 pm wouldnt it be easier to have a global rule that enables lore about personnel when referred with their rank
No, because there would be side effects. For example, there would no longer be a way to distinguish between Kang and Captain Kang. (This was all exhaustively researched in 2014 during the Dramatis Personae ruling crisis, and anyone curious can check out the public threads from back then.)
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#566703
Does the game need it?

I don't believe so.

And would that make them even more of a good choice for decks? Probably.

So I go with a clear NO on this.

We put too much emphasis on small things instead of making the game run smoothly and instead of adding complexity in the guise of depth.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566709
I've thought about it some more... and gone from being on the fence to definitely no, because of the gameplay implications.

The main "pro" argument I see is that "they were romantic partners in the movie so they should be romantic partners in the game." But gameplay has to come first; if we add all characteristics and skills that are ever shown on screen you would end up with ridiculous mega-cards. The reason we don't put 20 skills on Picard isn't (just) for space, it's because it wouldn't make for a fun game.

Gorge and Greasy are neither underpowered nor underplayed as is, so I don't see a gameplay reason to make them better. I've seen "pro" arguments along the lines of "if it breaks Cafe des Artistes, balance that rather than G&G." The problem is that G&G break the balancing mechanism naturally built in to the Cafe: you have to stop your personnel for smoochy-time, so if you're drawing 3 cards that's 6 personnel who aren't being used in mission attempts or whatever. But nobody is attempting missions with the whales, the whole point is to just leave them alone on Earth. There is no drawback whatsoever to stopping them for a Cafe draw.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#566710
Rachmaninoff wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:21 am I've thought about it some more... and gone from being on the fence to definitely no, because of the gameplay implications.

The main "pro" argument I see is that "they were romantic partners in the movie so they should be romantic partners in the game." But gameplay has to come first; if we add all characteristics and skills that are ever shown on screen you would end up with ridiculous mega-cards. The reason we don't put 20 skills on Picard isn't (just) for space, it's because it wouldn't make for a fun game.

Gorge and Greasy are neither underpowered nor underplayed as is, so I don't see a gameplay reason to make them better. I've seen "pro" arguments along the lines of "if it breaks Cafe des Artistes, balance that rather than G&G." The problem is that G&G break the balancing mechanism naturally built in to the Cafe: you have to stop your personnel for smoochy-time, so if you're drawing 3 cards that's 6 personnel who aren't being used in mission attempts or whatever. But nobody is attempting missions with the whales, the whole point is to just leave them alone on Earth. There is no drawback whatsoever to stopping them for a Cafe draw.
I don't disagree with what you have said but I will point out that in addition to stopping them, you have to stop them AT EARTH if you wish to maintain the bonus points constantly. You also have to stop any other romantic pairs their as well which makes it easier for your opponent to do something about it. Also most users of Cafe tend to be [Fed] anyway, and depending on the deck type they have several other dual personnel cards so you are aren't really stopping 6 personnel most of the time anyway and can be downloaded as well:

Sergey and Helena - [1E-TNG] - Assign Support Personnel
Mr. And Mrs. Troi - Defend Homeworld
Worf and Jadzia - [1E-DS9] - Defend Homeworld

Making George and Gracie a romantic pair gives all non- [Bor] affiliations the flexibility of having a dual personnel card that is compatible. Should we also bring up the chance to move them from [Neu] to [NA] ?
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#566716
Rachmaninoff wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:42 am A fair point -- but doing it at Earth (seeded HQ + Holodeck Door?) also gives you Strategema protection.
Also a fair point, but that can be done even without G&G being a Romantic Pair. I am just saying the advantage of spreading the Romantic Pair option to other affiliations is more balancing IMHO than the risks of giving [Fed] a 4th dual personnel option.
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