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At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:08 pm
by foul_owl
I report my personnel for duty. Opponent can look at them as they are reported. They are stacked up under the outpost, only I can look at them at that point. When I beam them over to a ship, my opponent doesn't know what my crew consists of. How do I prove that I meet the staffing requirements for the ship, first of all?

Next, when I create an away team for a mission, do I have to reveal the away team to prove that I can get past the dilemma I just encountered?

(Also is the dilemma itself revealed?)

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:35 pm
by pfti
If your opponent asks, you have to show staffing (but no more people than what is needed to prove staffing.
Meeting requrements is teh same.

The only time you show the entire crew/at is for an opponent's choice dilemma (even if everyone isnt elligable for the choice, you have to show them all)

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:54 pm
by DISCO Rox No More
What happens when they form an away team? Can't your opponent just ask for you to prove that you haven't created a house arrest situation, necessitating the reveal of each away team member?

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:30 pm
by Armus
DISCO Rox No More wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:54 pm What happens when they form an away team? Can't your opponent just ask for you to prove that you haven't created a house arrest situation, necessitating the reveal of each away team member?
No house arrest on planets. Incompatible personnel form separate away teams.

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:49 pm
by Keiimaster
Armus wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:30 pm
DISCO Rox No More wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:54 pm What happens when they form an away team? Can't your opponent just ask for you to prove that you haven't created a house arrest situation, necessitating the reveal of each away team member?
No house arrest on planets. Incompatible personnel form separate away teams.
Not to mention that in order to create a potential house arrest situation, you would have to have brought incompatible people onto your ship first, which you probably couldn't have illegally done so without your opponent noticing. You can't report incompatible personnel to your outpost, and if you tried they would see that. Assuming you had 2 incompatible outposts, and they each had a ship with a crew, the moment you bring them together and beam personnel over, your opponent would know you have a house arrest situation. Yes, you could be beaming [NA] from one ship to the other and hide incompatible crew in the mix, but they wouldn't benefit you until you needed their stats/skills, and the moment those are needed, you must reveal those personnel and the jig would be up. I suppose you might be able to hide incompatible personnel in your crew to make it less likely that a random selection might hit some specific crew/Away Team member, but you can do that easily with compatible personnel so why risk it?

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:51 am
by DISCO Rox No More
Both of you have spectacularly missed the point.

I mixed up "house arrest" with "incompatible away teams," but the point still stands. I know that incompatible away teams create two separate away teams, I know that house arrest is hard to engineer, and I know that if you track each and every one of your opponents moves - and don't forget any of them - you can stop house arrest before it starts, point out when it's about to start, or prove to yourself that it cannot occur, and your opponent can't "get away with it" even if he tries (and why would he want to try?).

My point is that when you beam down an away team to a planet, and they remain a single away team together, then your opponent can ask to prove that it's a legitimate single away team and that you haven't inadvertently created an illegal noncompatible away team that should actually be split into two. Similarly, when you attempt a space mission with a crew, your opponent can ask to prove that it's a legitimate single crew and not a "house arrest" situation involving incompatible crew members.

Either way, the point here is that you can try and hide your cards or keep your away team or crew members secret, and your opponent can still ask a valid question requiring you to prove that you haven't created an illegal situation, which in turn requires you to reveal your cards anyway.

In other words, the cheeky attempt to hide information is ultimately useless and can be subverted by an opponent who is intent on doing so with basic rules lawyering. Not to mention the attempt turns "Star Trek CCG" from a strategy game into a memory game.

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:20 am
by stressedoutatumc
DISCO Rox No More wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:51 am Both of you have spectacularly missed the point.

I mixed up "house arrest" with "incompatible away teams," but the point still stands. I know that incompatible away teams create two separate away teams, I know that house arrest is hard to engineer, and I know that if you track each and every one of your opponents moves - and don't forget any of them - you can stop house arrest before it starts, point out when it's about to start, or prove to yourself that it cannot occur, and your opponent can't "get away with it" even if he tries (and why would he want to try?).

My point is that when you beam down an away team to a planet, and they remain a single away team together, then your opponent can ask to prove that it's a legitimate single away team and that you haven't inadvertently created an illegal noncompatible away team that should actually be split into two. Similarly, when you attempt a space mission with a crew, your opponent can ask to prove that it's a legitimate single crew and not a "house arrest" situation involving incompatible crew members.

Either way, the point here is that you can try and hide your cards or keep your away team or crew members secret, and your opponent can still ask a valid question requiring you to prove that you haven't created an illegal situation, which in turn requires you to reveal your cards anyway.

In other words, the cheeky attempt to hide information is ultimately useless and can be subverted by an opponent who is intent on doing so with basic rules lawyering. Not to mention the attempt turns "Star Trek CCG" from a strategy game into a memory game.
I have 3 answers to the question.

1. This community is one that wants to play the game because they love the game. I honestly think this is enough to prevent the skeezy play you are alluding to. Personally, my play group is small and if I found out that someone was doing as described or cheating in some other way, I'd be done playing with them. I have a feeling this is generally the case wherever.

2. It works the other way, too. Don't do it. I appreciate your concern, but play clean and expect that of your opponent. Keep it friendly. I know in my play group we are aware of the rules, but no one has a problem asking about who the other has in play or being ok with someone writing it down. No one tries to beat the other person by lawyering or by cheating, because what's the point. There's no money involved and a cheater/skeezer would be ostracized from the community pretty quickly, I think.

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:38 am
by DISCO Rox No More
Not sure if I agree with you or disagree with you.

I agree that rules lawyering, using the example I provided, is kind of skeezy. But my point is partly that it's just a skeevy response to an equally skeevy choice to refuse to show what's in your away team or crew when asked.

I think the game - whether at my kitchen table or at a tournament - should remain friendly and clean, and that means if I ask who's on your ship or away team (because I have strategic reasons to do so - perhaps I'm thinking of playing Thine Own Self or maybe I'm deciding who to target with my "Opponent's Choice" dilemma in preparation for the followup dilemma I've set up in my combo), then you should do so happily.

OP asked "At what point is a crew or away team revealed," and pfti gave a very specific response. I think the actual right response (both for the sake of the friendliness of the game as well as for practical purposes) is actually "whenever any player feels it's relevant and asks."

Because if you're going to resort to skeevy "I'm only going to reveal to you in specific circumstances" choices, then I can resort to skeevy "Is your away team compatible?" rules lawyering questions to get around it, making the point moot anyhow. So since there's no way to technically keep the crew hidden, if I really want to peek at them, let's just all admit that it's easiest and best to share the info whenever asked and leave the skeeviness on both sides out of it.

(Also, you said you had 3 responses, but I only saw two. Not sure if one got accidentally deleted before submission)

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:33 am
by Ensign Q
in my experience, most players play by the rules, nobody is actively cheating. only mistakes happen sometimes.
that said, the game has a lot hidden information that can potentially be abused.

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:06 am
by Armus
I'm not sure I agree with you, @DISCO Rox No More

If I know you're playing Thine Own Self, or Barclay Transporter Phobia, or Brain Drain, etc. Then I'm going to play things differently because there's now an in-game reason to do so.

If I'm being honest, you'll probably hit me with the first one, because I don't enjoy that type of game (I'm sure buried somewhere deep in this forum is at least one rant I made on Loss of Orbital Stability after I got cheeseballed with it at Worlds awhile back), but once you've hit me with it, I'm going to alter my strategy to adapt as much as possible. Fool me once, etc.

But that aside, some of your examples don't make sense in game terms. Pfti is correct that your opponent only needs to show things when they have to. So if you want to play Thine Own Self, then you have to select a valid target - a one or two person away team at a planet mission - and you don't get to know which people are in that one or two person away team before you play it. You have to decide if playing it is a good choice based on limited information. That's not rules lawyering or being a dick, that's part of the strategic complexity of the game.

As far as an opponent's choice dilemma goes, it's been stated that when your opponent encounters such a dilemma, you get to see the entire crew or away team, even if not all of them are valid targets for the choice involved. So if you're trying to set up the next dilemma in the stack, then you already get access to that information by rule - no skeezy rules lawyering required.

But you paid for that information by seeding that opponent's choice dilemma. Why do you think you should get it "for free" just by asking? I'm not sure that's a reasonable assumption.

As far as verifying staffing goes, you're always free to ask that, but it's only relevant if there's a game action associated with it (obviously ship movement, but also cards that require a staffed ship), and I personally think it's fine to ask when it's gameplay relevant, but asking just to ask doesn't mean your opponent has to tell you. To the contrary, asking when it's *Not* gameplay-relevant could be construed as skeezy rules lawyering because odds are you're asking it while your opponent is trying to do something else in-game and it's a distraction at that point. Done enough at a tournament, it could be considered grounds for stalling. And if and when you do ask your opponent to verify staffing, don't be surprised if they only show you the minimum - that's all they're required to show you.

As far as the house arrest thing, again, context is for kings. If I'm playing mono-Fed or mono-whatever+Non-aligned and there's no way to even *have* a house arrest situation, then when asked to show my crew just because you wanna see them, I'm going to politely decline. Keep it up and it won't be so polite.

On the other hand, if I'm playing a Treaty deck, and you nuke my treaty, then you're very much in-bounds to cross-check me when I'm forming an away team or attempting a space mission to ensure I didn't mix incompatible people together on accident.

I had a tournament game years ago where my opponent played a whole bunch of different affiliation people to a Ferengi Trading Post. Which was fine, until he tried to put them all on the same ship, at which point I pointed out to him that he couldn't intentionally create a house arrest situation.

Bottom line, there's what the rules say you have to show and when, and you're free to ask (and probably *should* ask) to verify when it's gameplay-relevant. But there's a practical limitation to that . It's one thing to say you shouldn't be expected to remember every person I played, but it's another to say you shouldn't be expected to remember if I played different colors of people at any point to necessitate a house arrest check. Asking just to ask when there's no gameplay relevance to the question is skeezy rules lawyering. Not volunteering information not required to be shown isn't. At least in my book.

:twocents:

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:59 am
by pfti
I would rule that in compatibility questions, you could just show me the right sides of the cards so I see the affiliation colors work, or just the affiliation icons top left. If your opponent is going to be a pedantic jerk, you can respond by covering up as much as you are able

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:18 pm
by boromirofborg
pfti wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:59 am I would rule that in compatibility questions, you could just show me the right sides of the cards so I see the affiliation colors work, or just the affiliation icons top left. If your opponent is going to be a pedantic jerk, you can respond by covering up as much as you are able
lets set aside the opponent being a jerk or having a legitimate reason for a moment. (I don't disagree with you.)

Right now, the game has two ways to play. Physical and digital (lackey). On lackey, there's no way to reveal part of a card.

Given that online play is no longer a fringe side format, but is one of the major ways to play, I don't know that I particularly like this being so different in execution.

If it were up to me (and it's not), I would prefer seeing the two match where it's required to show the whole personnel whenever you are required to reveal part about it. For a few reasons.

1. Parity between physical/digital
2. more new player friendly - they don't have to memorize as much about the the thousands of personnel
3. physical accessibility - most games that used to have a physical attribute, such as dropping a card on to others or similar, have removed that in the name of being open to people that don't have the same physical abilities. I would argue that covering part of a card(s) in a stack(s) should fall in to that category.
3.

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:32 pm
by Armus
FWIW I wrapped up an online tournament and played in person back-to-back recently.

Showing staffing in Lackey, I put the card(s) on the digital table, let my opponent view them for a moment, then picked them back up into my Crew1 zone and continued the game.

Showing staffing in person, I pulled the cards out of my pile of people, laid them on the physical table for my opponent to view for a moment, then picked them back up into my pile of people and continued the game.

In neither case was any of this considered a problem and the two situations resembled each other pretty strongly.

Maybe I'm not the hardcore competitive player I used to be, but I did win both tournaments even with showing my opponents the full cards in all situations.

All of that to say, this doesn't have to be hard. It only gets hard if people want to be skeezy rules lawyers/pedantic jerks/etc., and that's not a game issue, that's a player issue.

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:56 pm
by stressedoutatumc
DISCO Rox No More wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:38 am Not sure if I agree with you or disagree with you.

I agree that rules lawyering, using the example I provided, is kind of skeezy. But my point is partly that it's just a skeevy response to an equally skeevy choice to refuse to show what's in your away team or crew when asked.

I think the game - whether at my kitchen table or at a tournament - should remain friendly and clean, and that means if I ask who's on your ship or away team (because I have strategic reasons to do so - perhaps I'm thinking of playing Thine Own Self or maybe I'm deciding who to target with my "Opponent's Choice" dilemma in preparation for the followup dilemma I've set up in my combo), then you should do so happily.

OP asked "At what point is a crew or away team revealed," and pfti gave a very specific response. I think the actual right response (both for the sake of the friendliness of the game as well as for practical purposes) is actually "whenever any player feels it's relevant and asks."

Because if you're going to resort to skeevy "I'm only going to reveal to you in specific circumstances" choices, then I can resort to skeevy "Is your away team compatible?" rules lawyering questions to get around it, making the point moot anyhow. So since there's no way to technically keep the crew hidden, if I really want to peek at them, let's just all admit that it's easiest and best to share the info whenever asked and leave the skeeviness on both sides out of it.

(Also, you said you had 3 responses, but I only saw two. Not sure if one got accidentally deleted before submission)
For clarity sake, I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my play group, we keep it friendly with also an eye on the rules. For example>>>

[1] We usually don't hide or cover our personnel like under an outpost, but also do not let the other person freely look. We know what the rule is and if we ever end up playing outsiders we know what to do.

[2] If I question staffing or anyone questions staffing, it's cool to prove it. We don't show everyone, just enough to cover. We also don't ask this hardly ever because its a gentlemens agreement to play within the rules.

[3] Same with other scenarios. It's always ok to ask, but we don't do it for skeezy reasons. It's okay if we think they are doing it for skeezy reasons to start playing to the strict letter of the rules.

I liken this to MTG, if you've played magic. Technically, once the phase has passed into the attack, you can no longer stop my creatures from attacking by tapping them with an ability or card. But, in a friendly game, we allow that.

Re: At what point is a crew or away team revealed?

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:31 pm
by AllenGould
I think there's a simpler angle here: what happens when you get caught?

Say I've got a Gowron, a Picard, and some NAs and I've tucked them into a single team.

What does that get me?

If I use Gowron and Picard to solve a mission or pass a dilemma, I'm busted.
If I use both of them to staff a ship, I'm busted.
Any sort of effect where you get to see the whole stack, I'm busted.
And in any sort of tournament environment, if you get suspicious, you can call the TD over to check my team, and then.. yup, still busted.

And I think there's a pretty good case for trying this sort of shenanigans to qualify as Deception, which is a tournament DQ.

So... *maybe* I can sneak Picard over to that Fed mission using Gowron as staffing? But even then if I'm running Feds and Klingons without any Treaty, what opponent isn't going to be paying a bit of attention to where stuff is?

In short - don't do it (because you are straight up full stop *cheating*), and if a TD catches someone doing it, give them the full DQ so there's no upside to even trying.

And on the flip side - don't try using this as an excuse to get extra information. Brain Drain, Long Range Scan... ain't no lack of legit ways to get a look at an opponent's cards.