[jadziadax8]

ok so sd goes to hand. clear and simple.
can keep the anytime rule then
we could get a temporary change from jan to march to test the change

IIRC, that used to be how it was back in 1999 or so when they changed it to downloads going in play immediately. I want to say they changed it because of a problem with the Borg Queen (First Contact) and A Change of Plans, but my memory is very fuzzy here.

Most were designed with going into play immediately as part of the deal. If Rules wanted to change that to going to hand, it certainly would need to research which downloads would break if they went to hand.

[stressedoutatumc]

ok so sd goes to hand. clear and simple.
can keep the anytime rule then
we could get a temporary change from jan to march to test the change

IIRC, that used to be how it was back in 1999 or so when they changed it to downloads going in play immediately. I want to say they changed it because of a problem with the Borg Queen (First Contact) and A Change of Plans, but my memory is very fuzzy here.

Most were designed with going into play immediately as part of the deal. If Rules wanted to change that to going to hand, it certainly would need to research which downloads would break if they went to hand.

I just said it above, but it seems the part that really breaks from is the timing. I'd suggest just taking away the "suspends play" part of the so its special in the way that it comes into play immediately, but also it no longer interrupt actions. Edit: Unless it is a valid response to the mentioned action. The example that pops into mind would be Kirks download of KHAN!

[ShipNerd]

Assuming it goes to hand, there are some issues to deal with:
are considered earned and are "unearned" when no longer in play such as in hand.
Tactics cannot go to hand, because that's not the place for them
If goes to hand, it works around the current OTF rule that downloads into play are once every turn. So once it goes to hand, it becomes stronger in that aspect as you can then -download multiple cards into your hand per turn, then.
Also when it goes to hand cards could be used on different locations (as goes to the location of the SD card). E.g. Vedek Kira could then SD Hidden fighter that is played at the opponents location, even other quadrants to surprise attack with a bajoran interceptor or something. It would change a lot.

So its not that easy but there are ways to solve it. Someone / the rules department who considers all aspects could do it.

[Armus]

ok so sd goes to hand. clear and simple.
can keep the anytime rule then
we could get a temporary change from jan to march to test the change

IIRC, that used to be how it was back in 1999 or so when they changed it to downloads going in play immediately. I want to say they changed it because of a problem with the Borg Queen (First Contact) and A Change of Plans, but my memory is very fuzzy here.

Most were designed with going into play immediately as part of the deal. If Rules wanted to change that to going to hand, it certainly would need to research which downloads would break if they went to hand.

There's a history lesson on this.

Here.

Additional follow- on discussion here.

I still have strong reservations about giving people the opportunity to flood their hand with choice cards. I think this is why I really find myself being more open to @AllenGould 's above proposal.

I also don't totally hate the idea of interrupt speed vice suspends play speed, but I think that does need to be coupled with some actual, intentional, appropriately costed bugout cards (that can't be downloaded. Make draw decks matter!).

Either way, I think there's been a lot of good points raised and I also think there's a plausible solution set to be had if we have Designers and Rules nerds willing to put the work in to effect this type of change.

[jadziadax8]

Well, at least I was remembering the word Plan correctly.

[AllenGould]

IIRC, that used to be how it was back in 1999 or so when they changed it to downloads going in play immediately. I want to say they changed it because of a problem with the Borg Queen (First Contact) and A Change of Plans, but my memory is very fuzzy here.

I thought it was tied to DS9 and ore processing, where you could use Examine Singularity's repeatable download to grab a card, feed it to processing, download that same card out next turn.

And I think that's a good argument against allowing to download to hand - that returns the old trick of downloading any and every card you can to be free fodder for processing or Masaka or whatever.

[stressedoutatumc]

I still have strong reservations about giving people the opportunity to flood their hand with choice cards. I think this is why I really find myself being more open to @AllenGould 's above proposal.

I also don't totally hate the idea of interrupt speed vice suspends play speed, but I think that does need to be coupled with some actual, intentional, appropriately costed bugout cards (that can't be downloaded. Make draw decks matter!).

Either way, I think there's been a lot of good points raised and I also think there's a plausible solution set to be had if we have Designers and Rules nerds willing to put the work in to effect this type of change.

I would encourage these NOT to include anything that can stop a dilemma attempt. I think dilemma, in general, has been disrespected as a necessary part of the game as the game has tilted more towards offense. Just my 2 cents

[sexecutioner]

We're back to the anti topic I see...

[jjh]

I'm not a fan of dilemma "bug outs." Facing dilemmas and solving missions should be hard.

But if there are game-breaking NPE dilemma combos in the current 1E Meta that necessitate dilemma bug outs (please help me understand), a bright light should be shone onto the combos, and handled with the OTF toolbox (watch list, ban, errata, etc).

And let's "show the work."

(maybe I'm asking too much of Santa)

[AllenGould]

We're back to the anti topic I see...

My problem isn't that exists - it's that it exists at the farthest edge of how good that mechanic could possibly be (i.e. how would you even improve on "fetch, draw, play for free, *and* ignore all timing"?), and simultaneously benefits from being a loaded icon and thus is the shortest and easiest way to write that sort of ability (i.e. all the weaker versions we have are longer). So we're in this worst world where we all know the mechanic is too strong, but the cost to make it reasonable is too high because space is limited and no-one wants to jettison skills and toys to write out "Once per game, may download".

[stressedoutatumc]

We're back to the anti topic I see...

I actually think the is a basically good mechanic, but what has been revealed, imo, is that using the "suspends play" part of it creates abuse that sidesteps dilemma. It was already said that none of that functionality was even intended, so why allow it to continue to break dilemma? That's been my argument, anyway.

I wouldn't be a fan of dramatically changing it, because I think most of the way it breaks the game is specifically to cheese dilemma by downloading a bugout card or an altering card at a time that it shouldn't be able to. Again, just my opinion.

I like the idea of making so it cannot suspend play as was suggested.

[PantsOfTheTalShiar]

I'd generalize it even further - you get the fetch, but no timing bennies. If a card costs a card play, SD still requires the card play. If it's an interrupt/doorway, it has to be a legal play.

This is one of the worst ideas, along with " s go to hand." 1E has so few knobs available to tweak a card's cost, and those ideas would eliminate a knob. If you look at the vast majority of pairs, at least one of the cards (either the downloader or downloadee) is not worth playing alone. allows these sub-par cards to get played by bundling them with another card such that the total benefit is worth the cost paid, whether that's a normal card play or a once-per-turn free play.

This is why I also get annoyed when people complain that verbs or equipment are only playable when 'ed. Yes, verbs and equipment are generally NOT playable. It's been that way since '94. is a tool to MAKE them playable. Why would you want to get rid of that tool?

Where gets overused is when designers are focusing on making references more than gameplay. On the show, X was associated with Y, so therefore the X card should the Y card. Well, maybe that's not always the best idea. I also think that there's a perception that personnel with only regular skills are boring, which puts pressure on designers to use special skills including . Folks, the excitement is supposed to come from the gameplay -- how the cards come together to make a deck -- and not from looking at individual cards.

[AllenGould]

This is one of the worst ideas, along with " s go to hand." 1E has so few knobs available to tweak a card's cost, and those ideas would eliminate a knob.

It wouldn't eliminate anything. You can still make a card that suspends play to download another card. You'd just have to actually spell it out, which means it would be deliberate and worth the text cost, rather than being the default.

[Hoss-Drone]

Can we have all the download discussion cut out of this thread....

[nobthehobbit]

I've split off the discussion about whether special downloads should be limited in some way into this thread from the 1E Christmas thread. Please keep further discussion on the matter here.