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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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#569574
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:04 pm
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:51 pm
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:48 pm As the player with both the ship that had the most damage and the least damage, then wouldn't that just mean that you both Won and Lost a battle?

That's how I would see it & rule it at a tournament.
But in total, which is what the rule is looking at, you as the player tied you as the player. It's not looking at which force took more or less damage.
Disagree, because there are two sides of the battle, you as a player with a ship vs you as a player with a ship. You lose or win a battle due to your ship winning or losing said battle. I would definitely argue that you are both the winner and loser of A battle.
I mean, I guess it's your prerogative to ignore the rules, if you want. But it clearly states that if both sides take equal damage, there is no winner. Since you are both sides (not your ships), your damage is equal.

Force A takes 75% damage.
Force B takes 50% damage.

Player A took 125% damage.
Player B took 125% damage.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#569578
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:11 pm
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:04 pm
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:51 pm

But in total, which is what the rule is looking at, you as the player tied you as the player. It's not looking at which force took more or less damage.
Disagree, because there are two sides of the battle, you as a player with a ship vs you as a player with a ship. You lose or win a battle due to your ship winning or losing said battle. I would definitely argue that you are both the winner and loser of A battle.
I mean, I guess it's your prerogative to ignore the rules, if you want. But it clearly states that if both sides take equal damage, there is no winner. Since you are both sides (not your ships), your damage is equal.
Um, I'm not ignoring the rules. Why are you being so passive aggressive here?

The damage is NOT equal at all. If one ship is destroyed and the other one isn't then the damage isn't equal.

The rules say that " is the player whose ships and facilities sustained the least HULL damage. If both sides took equal HULL damage, there is no winner"

So first let's break that down.

1) There are both sides to the battle. It clearly says with 'both sides'

Then it says the player. Not player and opponent /adversary/AI/Q/etc but the player.

So let's take this scenario. You are THE player with a ship attacking the other THE player who has a ship depending. Okay, so you own both? That doesn't seem to matter in this context because there are two sides to the battle. So you are the player who is attacking vs the player who is defending. The attacking player wins against the defending player. Just because the player is the same doesn't mean it invalidates the win of the battle.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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#569579
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:16 pm
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:11 pm
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:04 pm

Disagree, because there are two sides of the battle, you as a player with a ship vs you as a player with a ship. You lose or win a battle due to your ship winning or losing said battle. I would definitely argue that you are both the winner and loser of A battle.
I mean, I guess it's your prerogative to ignore the rules, if you want. But it clearly states that if both sides take equal damage, there is no winner. Since you are both sides (not your ships), your damage is equal.
Um, I'm not ignoring the rules. Why are you being so passive aggressive here?

The damage is NOT equal at all. If one ship is destroyed and the other one isn't then the damage isn't equal.

The rules say that " is the player whose ships and facilities sustained the least HULL damage. If both sides took equal HULL damage, there is no winner"

So first let's break that down.

1) There are both sides to the battle. It clearly says with 'both sides'

Then it says the player. Not player and opponent /adversary/AI/Q/etc but the player.

So let's take this scenario. You are THE player with a ship attacking the other THE player who has a ship depending. Okay, so you own both? That doesn't seem to matter in this context because there are two sides to the battle. So you are the player who is attacking vs the player who is defending. The attacking player wins against the defending player. Just because the player is the same doesn't mean it invalidates the win of the battle.
You are only a single player, who controls multiple forces. The only way to win a battle, according to the rules quoted above, is to be the player whose ships sustained the least HULL damage. So at the end of the battle, you must ask, how much damage did your ships take during the battle? The total must include all of your ships, because they're all yours, the only player involved. The only way to logically conclude that the 2nd sentence of the rule allows you to win is to ignore the 1st sentence of the rule which doesn't.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#569581
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:19 pm
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:16 pm
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:11 pm I mean, I guess it's your prerogative to ignore the rules, if you want. But it clearly states that if both sides take equal damage, there is no winner. Since you are both sides (not your ships), your damage is equal.
Um, I'm not ignoring the rules. Why are you being so passive aggressive here?

The damage is NOT equal at all. If one ship is destroyed and the other one isn't then the damage isn't equal.

The rules say that " is the player whose ships and facilities sustained the least HULL damage. If both sides took equal HULL damage, there is no winner"

So first let's break that down.

1) There are both sides to the battle. It clearly says with 'both sides'

Then it says the player. Not player and opponent /adversary/AI/Q/etc but the player.

So let's take this scenario. You are THE player with a ship attacking the other THE player who has a ship depending. Okay, so you own both? That doesn't seem to matter in this context because there are two sides to the battle. So you are the player who is attacking vs the player who is defending. The attacking player wins against the defending player. Just because the player is the same doesn't mean it invalidates the win of the battle.
You are only a single player, who controls multiple forces. The only way to win a battle, according to the rules quoted above, is to be the player whose ships sustained the least HULL damage. So at the end of the battle, you must ask, how much damage did your ships take during the battle? The total must include all of your ships, because they're all yours, the only player involved. The only way to logically conclude that the 2nd sentence of the rule allows you to win is to ignore the 1st sentence of the rule which doesn't.
I disagree with your assertation. And this is where the 1E Rules Master would have to step in. I would go with his ruling, but if it had never been ruled before, and because this deck archetype has been in so many tournaments before, I would go with my interpretation of the rules unless told by the 1E Rules otherwise.

IMO, the rules clearly says a battle has two sides so you view the sides as two separate entities. The fact you control both sides of the battle has nothing to do with it. Two sides of the battle means one side loses and the other side wins. The player can be both a winner and a loser in that understanding of the rules.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#569582
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:48 pm As the player with both the ship that had the most damage and the least damage, then wouldn't that just mean that you both Won and Lost a battle?
Nope, because it specifically says if you tied, there is no winner or loser at all.

So intuition holds - you can't win a fight with yourself. ;)
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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#569585
OK, let's break it down to see which part of the rule allows you to win.
The winner of a ship battle (for the purposes of cards like Data's Medals) is the player whose ships and facilities sustained the least HULL damage.
To do this, each player must count a total of all HULL damage that their ships sustained during the battle.
If both sides took equal HULL damage, there is no winner (or loser).
Since you are playing both sides, you insert your total HULL damage on both sides of the equation. This results in a tie.

Where do you see wiggle room on any of this?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#569586
So by the same logic, does it also then follow that @WeAreBack 's suggestion of having a [Self] card doesn't work either? How can you win a battle against a [Self] card?
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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#569587
Armus wrote:So by the same logic, does it also then follow that @WeAreBack 's suggestion of having a [Self] card doesn't work either? How can you win a battle against a [Self] card?
In the strictest sense, you do not win a battle against [Self] cards. You can destroy them using standard attack and damage rules, according to the Glossary, though.
Armus wrote:I always thought winning a ship battle was more like winning a personnel battle (my weapons > your shields = I win).
And this is the key point. Personnel battle rules refer to forces winning, not players specifically.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#569590
Rules is looking at this.

UPDATE: cripes, five new posts between the time I started writing the post, "Rules is looking at this," and the time I hit Submit!
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#569591
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:33 pm OK, let's break it down to see which part of the rule allows you to win.
The winner of a ship battle (for the purposes of cards like Data's Medals) is the player whose ships and facilities sustained the least HULL damage.
To do this, each player must count a total of all HULL damage that their ships sustained during the battle.
If both sides took equal HULL damage, there is no winner (or loser).
Since you are playing both sides, you insert your total HULL damage on both sides of the equation. This results in a tie.

Where do you see wiggle room on any of this?
You are misquoting it. It says THE player, not EACH player.

There are two sides that are battling as the rules indicate. One is the player attacking vs the player who is defending. Since damage is calculated only during the battle, then the winner and loser are declared while there are still two separate sides. Since they are separate forces you can't add them together to calculate damage but instead treat them as two separate groups.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#569592
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm Rules is looking at this.

UPDATE: cripes, five new posts between the time I started writing the post, "Rules is looking at this," and the time I hit Submit!
We have summoned him!
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#569593
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:56 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm Rules is looking at this.

UPDATE: cripes, five new posts between the time I started writing the post, "Rules is looking at this," and the time I hit Submit!
We have summoned him!
And you didn't even have to do the dance!
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#569595
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:56 pm
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:56 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm Rules is looking at this.

UPDATE: cripes, five new posts between the time I started writing the post, "Rules is looking at this," and the time I hit Submit!
We have summoned him!
And you didn't even have to do the dance!
All it took was people arguing over a deck archetype that has been used in too many tournaments to even count arguing over the minute of what it means to be a 'side' in a battle and 'the player' during a battle it seems :)
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
#569598
DarkSabre wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm
JeBuS wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:33 pm OK, let's break it down to see which part of the rule allows you to win.
The winner of a ship battle (for the purposes of cards like Data's Medals) is the player whose ships and facilities sustained the least HULL damage.
To do this, each player must count a total of all HULL damage that their ships sustained during the battle. (As that is the only way to determine "least", via comparison.)
If both sides took equal HULL damage, there is no winner (or loser).
Since you are playing both sides, you insert your total HULL damage on both sides of the equation. This results in a tie.

Where do you see wiggle room on any of this?
You are misquoting it. It says THE player, not EACH player.
I did not misquote the rule. I applied the rule. The rule I quoted is exactly as the rulebook has it. To apply the rule, each player involved in the battle must total their damage.
There are two sides that are battling as the rules indicate. One is the player attacking vs the player who is defending. Since damage is calculated only during the battle, then the winner and loser are declared while there are still two separate sides. Since they are separate forces you can't add them together to calculate damage but instead treat them as two separate groups.
"Sides" and "forces" do not determine the winner of a ship battle. "Players" determine the winner of a battle. The rules say that in the first sentence, which I'll repeat for effect, emphasis mine (and others).
The winner of a ship battle (for the purposes of cards like Data's Medals) is the player whose ships and facilities sustained the least HULL damage.
Last edited by JeBuS on Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#569599
Yep. A compelling textual argument vs. a very well-established precedent is a classic recipe for T.D. confusion and conflict, so that got my attention.
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Thanks for the good game :-)