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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#578553
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:33 pm
THERE'S MORE PLAYERS THAT HATE THE REF THEN DON'T.
I won't be so sure. But fine. Ban it. You will face so many issues which Ref takes care off that you won't have fun in your game.

There are a couple of things which I would do, if Ref goes. Amanda and Kevins times 100, Q-Flash auto include, Dr. Noah auto-include, Red-Shirting all the time, Brain Drain times 100 and more, report-with-crew unlimited. You do not want that.
The way I interpreted the desire to get away from [Ref] was to fix the things that made [Ref] needed and then get rid of [Ref] . Was this not your interpretation of the discussion?

-James M
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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#578554
Orbin wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:41 amThe way I interpreted the desire to get away from [Ref] was to fix the things that made [Ref] needed and then get rid of [Ref] . Was this not your interpretation of the discussion?
I think your interpretation is an accurate representation of the general consensus, but @StateofSTCCG, if I am not misreading him, takes a much more radical view, demanding immediate removal of the [Ref] mechanic.

He further accuses the CC of kowtowing to an alleged minority of players who "love the [Ref]," and speculates that many players have been leaving because the CC refuses to run roughshod over players like @Caretaker's Guest.

I can certainly understand why @Caretaker's Guest would take umbrage at that. I would, too, if my position were characterized so unfairly.

It is unclear to me which ex-players @StateofSTCCG has been in contact with, how he ascertained that their exodus was because of [Ref], or when he himself tried the [Ref] mechanic in OTF Complete (as it has been substantially toned down over the years).

An earlier post in this thread by @DISCO Rox No More seems to make the opposite contention; DISCO's post suggests that the real problem is that the CC too often does run roughshod over substantial minorities of players without moving slowly or carefully, although I'm not certain which specific situations he has in mind. (The ANIMAL offload? The Nor changes? The exclusion of City of B'Hala from Mirror Bajor?) In any event, the different directions in which State and Disco seem to be pulling makes it unclear how the CC could make both players (and the factions they claim to represent) happy.
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 - Delta Quadrant
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#578567
I do not feel offended by StateoftheCC. He may have a pointy way to express his opinion, but we are all adults here. When you want to reform the Ref mechanic there is a lot of danger. This is what I was trying to say.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#578568
I'd be more impressed with @StateofSTCCG if he actually responded to my PM asking to see his better mousetrap.

I mean, if you're gonna put "I have an awesome new format! PM me for details!" in your signature line, while shitting on the CC stuff, you can't be non-responsive to people PMing you for the details and expect to retain your credibility.

But that's a bunch of 2e nonsense so I won't junk up this thread any more with it.
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By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
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2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578569
Armus wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:54 am I'd be more impressed with @StateofSTCCG if he actually responded to my PM asking to see his better mousetrap.

I mean, if you're gonna put "I have an awesome new format! PM me for details!" in your signature line, while shitting on the CC stuff, you can't be non-responsive to people PMing you for the details and expect to retain your credibility.

But that's a bunch of 2e nonsense so I won't junk up this thread any more with it.
Ha!

I'm still waiting on all the links for his awesome YouTube videos that will explain why the new sets are crap.
 
By Se7enofMine (ChadC)
 - Delta Quadrant
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Moderator
#578586
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:07 amIn any event, the different directions in which State and Disco seem to be pulling makes it unclear how the CC could make both players (and the factions they claim to represent) happy
The reality is .. you can't. You simply cant make everyone happy all the time. Any effort to do so is a fool's errand. All you can do is do the best you can and hope the majority likes what you did. I submit that the CC in general has done that.
jadziadax8 wrote:
Armus wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:54 am I'd be more impressed with @StateofSTCCG if he actually responded to my PM asking to see his better mousetrap.

I mean, if you're gonna put "I have an awesome new format! PM me for details!" in your signature line, while shitting on the CC stuff, you can't be non-responsive to people PMing you for the details and expect to retain your credibility.

But that's a bunch of 2e nonsense so I won't junk up this thread any more with it.
Ha!
I'm still waiting on all the links for his awesome YouTube videos that will explain why the new sets are crap.
Spoiler alert: there are likely none :thumbsup:
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#578592
martok88 wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 6:34 am For years, there has been a process that I really liked: the slow but steady fading out of [Ref] cards by various means:
- making them OTF-rules General Quarters
- removing aggressive functions Access Denied
- straight up banning Shape Shift Inhibitor
- removing [Ref] -icon The Wake of the Borg
I think we all need to remember that there is at least one [Ref] card then came to be by essentially going in the reverse direction of General Quarters, Intermix Ratio, Fair Play, You Are a Monument or The Big Picture from rule to [Ref] card: White Deprivation.

If we're going to to get rid of [Ref] icons, then the next logical step is to either: (1) turn White Deprivation back into a rule or (2) remove the [Ref] from the card and add the following restriction box on every card with a [KW] icon:
Must [DL] White Deprivation if not in play.
(I think the [DL] icon is OK here, because there' no way for it to leave play if it's not a [Ref] card, so you're never in a situation of playing a [KW] personnel for the second time and the [DL] is unavailable because it's been used.)

This would be an errata to 36 cards. That's a lot more cards more than saying all of Khan's followers from The Motion Pictures get "augment" added (as it seems they will when TMP remastered comes out), but it's still in the range of the doable if CC wanted to go that route. But this would likely be in a few years next time there's a set coming out that is DS9 related.

On a related note -- again, if CC wanted to reduce the number of [Ref] cards -- I think the first function of Reactor Overload would be a good candidate. Now that basically every body and there mother (except [1E-TNG] decks) is using Study Divergent History, and literally anyone but [Bor] can useProcess Ore: Mining, as well as a whole variety of cards like Duck Blind and Holoprogram: Cafe Des Artistes, I feel like it's no longer sufficiently "abusive" to use the original Process Ore to draw two cards instead of one that we need a [Ref] card to destroy the OPU after this has occurred. All this does is prevent players who aren't using a [MQ] Nor or a [Car] [1E-DS9] Nor -- which seems like a pretty narrow category of instances involving Empok Nor or the occasional [1E-TNG] [Car] deck -- from including process ore in their decks at all.

The second function of reactor overload still seems necessary because of Followers of the One and various [Bor] cards, although we are at least no longer going to see Anastasia Komananov beaming beamed using Invaisve Transporters as of this week.
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#578598
WeAreBack wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:48 pm If we're going to to get rid of [Ref] icons, then the next logical step is to either: (1) turn White Deprivation back into a rule or (2) remove the [Ref] from the card and add the following restriction box on every card with a [KW] icon:
Must [DL] White Deprivation if not in play.
(I think the [DL] icon is OK here, because there' no way for it to leave play if it's not a [Ref] card, so you're never in a situation of playing a [KW] personnel for the second time and the [DL] is unavailable because it's been used.)
Or, we could accept that the White rule was a bad idea that neutered Dominion for years. Or are there Jemmie players who just loved doing extra upkeep futzing every turn?
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
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#578610
AllenGould wrote: Or, we could accept that the White rule was a bad idea that neutered Dominion for years.
So when the Jem'Hadar were introduced, they definitely needed something to balance out how good they were. They were as strong (or stronger) than Klingons, as smart as Romulans and had as much integrity as the Federation. Plus, you could use Assign Support Personnel to report nearly all of the original ❖ Jem'Hadar in The Dominion expansion directly to a ship, even when it wasn't in it's home quadrant. Plus they have the whole young Jem'Hadar/birthing chamber free report mechanism, and Deyos was introduced shortly after the affiliation was.

Arguably, the Hirogen are similar "pound for pound" and don't have to worry about Ketracel White. They get their free report with an Alpha and an incident you can seed, instead of with equipment and a universal personnel. (Although even with their [Holo] personnel they are a smaller affiliation than the Jem'Hadar by themselves, even without the Dominion's Dosi, Vorta, Founders, Breen, Cardassians or Son'a.)

If it's not a [Ref] card, or a rule, and doesn't just automatically download anytime a [KW] card enters play, no one is going to play with White Deprivation just on the chance their opponent plays Dominion.

Would this make the Dominion unstoppable? No.

But why are we letting the Dominion download two equipment cards with their outpost using Ultimatum, or five using Establish dominion foothold, or report an UNLIMITED amount of equipment for free at their Primary Supply Depot -- all very convenient to cargo run to their Cardassian allies' Nor and then turn into Founders using In the Bag -- if they don't need Ketracel White?

And the rules for playing Borg are INFINITELY more complicated than having Ketracel White as a rule ever was. And if all those rules fit on a card that just gets downloaded into play with the first [KW] played, it's not really that complicated. (And by contrast, the special Borg rules make them more powerful and make certain strategies unplayable competitively, see my
prior post])

Besides, the Jem'hadar need for White, and the need to protect their supply lines is so central to who they are as a group of people, that saying they don't need it at all would be like saying that all of the mechanics for the Ferengi involving Gold Pressed Latinum are just complicated and annoying, and should be simplified to get rid of the actual Gold Pressed Latinum card and turn it all into card draws instead.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#578613
AllenGould wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:28 pm Or, we could accept that the White rule was a bad idea that neutered Dominion for years. Or are there Jemmie players who just loved doing extra upkeep futzing every turn?
*raises hand*

Once they removed it, it really hurt my interest in Dominion, and I was a big player of Dominion back in the day. It was one of the big things that kept them different then other affiliations, balanced their strengths, and like the Borg, made them feel like the show.

If I wanted to play a card game where all the affiliations were the same except for the template, well... that's why [2E] exists.

If the original White derivation was too much, they should have tweaked it, but offloading it onto a card was a good example of Decipher fixing things the wrong way, same as Writ of Acquisition.

To me it's the same as if Borg attempted missions normally unless the opponent had a card that said they must scout. It was a fundamental part of the flavor of the affiliation that Decipher tossed away.
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#578614
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:19 pm *raises hand*
Huh. Goes to show, I guess.

Up here, if we saw Dominion at all it was exclusively Vortas and Founders. No-one saw the point of playing people who could randomly die if an opponent looked at them too harshly.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#578615
AllenGould wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:27 pm Up here, if we saw Dominion at all it was exclusively Vortas and Founders. No-one saw the point of playing people who could randomly die if an opponent looked at them too harshly.
well, that's where I think the current situation is abysmally bad design. The same rule exists, on an easily downloadable card. So you have the same disencentive to use [KW] personnel as you did before. Except...

now if an opponent chooses not to run White Deprivation, you don't have to worry about it. So future cards are either designed with the balance of White Deprivation in mind, or not.

And just like writ, it because a meta game call. And just like Writ, if you run the strategy, you could lose the game on a coin flip to if your opponent included the silver bullet or not.

So, when building the deck, if I assume the opponent might play an uncountable, downloadable silver bullet, I still have to build the deck the same way as if the rule existed.

Or I bet on them not running it.

The uncertainty is bad.

I fully believe there should be meta game shifts and affiliation hate cards. But they shouldn't be ones like this.

__________

I agree that White Deprivation as it was was a little too much of a cost. If I was designing it, it would probably not count down at all if a Vorta was present, instead of only one counting down a turn. Or *something* like that.

But the flavor of the affiliation means that Jim-Hadar are addicted to white. That inherent nature feels as wrong to ignore as if we ignored the Bajoran Wormhole and just let cards move between quadrants directly.
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#578616
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:59 pm But the flavor of the affiliation means that Jim-Hadar are addicted to white. That inherent nature feels as wrong to ignore as if we ignored the Bajoran Wormhole and just let cards move between quadrants directly.
My rebuttal to that is that while Jemmies need White or else get cranky, we don't see them needing it hourly (even Rocks and Shoals shows a single vial lasting over a day). At that time scale, shouldn't Feds have to be counting down "Coffee" cards? ;)
 
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#578619
:twocents: Remove the [Ref] from White Deprivation, errata key [Dom] engines like Jem'Hadar Birthing Chamber or Ultimatum to force a download of it or to require it to be in play, and errata White Deprivation to only affect your Jemmies.

Nobody has to memorize extra rules, newbies don't get blindsided by a card they didn't know about, and if you want to play vanilla Dominion you don't have to bother with White. It's just part of the bargain if you want to use the fun/powerful toys.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#578633
Rachmaninoff wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:21 pm :twocents: Remove the [Ref] from White Deprivation, errata key [Dom] engines like Jem'Hadar Birthing Chamber or Ultimatum to force a download of it or to require it to be in play, and errata White Deprivation to only affect your Jemmies.
:thumbsup: This was a good idea when @Hoss-Drone had it, and it's a good idea today.

(I'm sure he wasn't the first, either. It's a very solid idea, so it's unsurprising that multiple people keep suggesting it.)
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