This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By martok88
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#572641
For years, there has been a process that I really liked: the slow but steady fading out of [Ref] cards by various means:
- making them OTF-rules General Quarters
- removing aggressive functions Access Denied
- straight up banning Shape Shift Inhibitor
- removing [Ref] -icon The Wake of the Borg

I would really love to see the [Ref] side deck disappear over time. This is also why I am very happy to see Defend Homeworld on the watch list. I would at least remove its [Ref] icon.

But the card I want to ask about today is my most hated [Ref] : Containment Field
It has been on the watch list for almost 2 years. Its aggressive use and re-cycling mechanic with Q the Referee (that by the way defies the original intent of the card complicates the game and is not defensive anymore.
So after that much time on the watch list: What is the verdict on that card? Personally, I would just remove the [Ref] : it would return to its original function without the ability to be recycled each turn.

In summary:
I think by taking away [Ref] icons on cards like Defend Homeworld and Containment Field, we are on our way to make [Ref] side decks and thus Tribunal of Q unneccessary - a noble goal!
I know what some people might say about that: What about homeworld protection? Simple: seed Strategema or Defend Homeworld directly if you're afraid of attack - no [Ref] icons needed.

What do you guys think?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#572647
The problem with Containment Field isn't the [Ref] icon, it's the ability to cycle it to discard your opponent's cards.

To the extent it needs errata it's to keep it in play permanently ala General Quarters.

Contrary to your position, I consider Containment Field to be one of the most essential police cards left.

Now if you want to change the underlying [DL] rules to add a per turn limit, then we can talk about not needing CF.

But there needs to be some sort of threat in the game, or you're just going to make [OS] (among others) even more powerful than they already are.
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By martok88
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#572654
Armus wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:39 am The problem with Containment Field isn't the [Ref] icon, it's the ability to cycle it to discard your opponent's cards.
I agree, but removig the [Ref] icon is a simple way to kill the cycling ability. I would argue that the card is already great and powerful enough without the [Ref] -icon. In some decks, I would definitely invest a seed slot for it, even without [Ref].
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Grand Nagus
#572661
As archconservative I disagree. To Ref or not to Ref is a strategic aspect. DH could lose the icon, fine. But Containment Field? As long as TOS Fed is so strong. Never. I know that in certain play groups put their only Makeitso RRD dl on top and then wonder when it gets juggled away. No 5 points from GUS every turn... Ups... :)
 
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#572676
Solution is simple. Remove the aggressive aspect of the card.

Either:

Errata Containment Field so that it "May not leave play." It's kind of full already, so remove the "owner loses points" text when nullifying Destroy Radioactive Garbage Scow (an unnecessary extra punishment for using the card that already will have no effect and becomes dead weight in your deck)

OR

Errata Q The Referee so that "Containment Field" is specifically called out as an exception to which [Ref] cards you can discard from play. There's plenty of room left on that card.
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By martok88
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#572686
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:24 pm As archconservative I disagree. To Ref or not to Ref is a strategic aspect. DH could lose the icon, fine. But Containment Field? As long as TOS Fed is so strong. Never.
I definitely get that... but should it be up to an anti-cheese side-deck to tame an overpowered deck type or mechanic? I think much rather the overpowered deck type or mechanic should be brought in line with the power level of the rest of affiliations/factions, e.g. nerf to downloading during mission attempts or at least direct nerfs to cards like Nilz Baris or Admiral Riker.
 
By Dunnagh (Andreas Micheel)
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#572726
Different idea: Remove the cycling ability of Q the Referee - I mean, this always led to shenanigans that weren´t in the intent of this card. The discards portion was only to being able to get rid of opponents abusive cards THEN being able to get rid of the [Ref] card again which you dont need anymore.

But what happened was that people started using that draw to convert to download things that are completely unrelated to the Referee - and obviously it had a negative impact on Containment Field

So in my eyes it´s quite easy (for OTF): Simply remove the cycling part from play (and possibly, from hand, too)
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1E The Void Regional Champion 2022
#572765
I don't know the inner-working of the CC, but I still do not understand why it seems so long to address cheese-ball strategies. In general, it seems like the game doesn't want Negative Player Experiences (and I 100% agree) but then also it balks at eliminating ones that people "just like to use". Nilz Barris/Anastasia and the way they can interrupt dilemma (which was never intended). Containment field and cycling out to eliminate cards from a players hand (which was never intended). Just emergency errata or temp ban the card and work a solution. Who is actually arguing that we need to keep card functions that produce NPE like Containment Field or downloadable Incoming Message/Smoke Bombs, or massive downloads with Defend Homeworld because I have to fight you at Quark's bar. etc. Just get rid of those functions already.

For instance:

Defend Homeworld - add "voluntarily"
[DL] can only work at normal interrupt speed
Containment Field - cannot leave play through Q the Referee.
 
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#572964
Unintended and unforeseen combinations are part of the magic and appeal of CCGs. They allow the player to innovate and surprise and are part of what elevates deckbuilding into a useful skill for the game, and turns the resulting decks into more than just the sum of their parts. Otherwise it's all cookie cutter decks.

For players, CCGs have so much more overhead than other games. Combos are one of the few benefits that become a unique reward for such a high cost.
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By Enabran
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#572970
If you do not like Nilz's and Anastasia's [DL], errata it to [SD] "Once per game, you may..." but do not change the whole [DL] Rules.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#572972
Enabran wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:33 pm If you do not like Nilz's and Anastasia's [DL], errata it to [SD] "Once per game, you may..." but do not change the whole [DL] Rules.
That'll work for Nilz, but I think the better answer to Anastasia is to errata Smoke Bomb so that the second function only targets opponent's crew or away team. That would preserve the original intent of both cards including the [DL] timing aspect, but eliminating its use as a bug out.
 
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#572979
Anastasia is pretty much a useless card without the bugout, and being a hologram, is difficult to use.

I don't understand what the problem is with having an entire card devoted to a bugout that can be used only once per game, has a cost to use, doesn't have much other utility, and can be strategized against.
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1E The Void Regional Champion 2022
#573285
Armus wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:40 pm
Enabran wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:33 pm If you do not like Nilz's and Anastasia's [DL], errata it to [SD] "Once per game, you may..." but do not change the whole [DL] Rules.
That'll work for Nilz, but I think the better answer to Anastasia is to errata Smoke Bomb so that the second function only targets opponent's crew or away team. That would preserve the original intent of both cards including the [DL] timing aspect, but eliminating its use as a bug out.
It would eliminate future unintended uses/bugout/cheese, though. I think a larger philosophical question is why does [DL] need to suspend play? If left to interrupt speed there are still huge benefits for [DL] and the cards they fetch can still happen during the opponents turn. But it would eliminate the "dial a skill" and dilemma combo breaking that they do now. The reason I think it's important to not interrupt dilemma is that so subverts that part of the game and really becomes a game-breaker since there are so many 2 mission win strategies that are viable and somewhat easy to pull off. If I can interrupt two mission dilemma combos, there might as well not even be dilemma there to begin with, in a sense.

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