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 - Delta Quadrant
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#573299
I think dilemma-escape based on interrupts is not such a big deal. Amanda and Co can turn a planned saved trip into the intended nightmare... Non-interrupt/event dilemma escape is more problematical fmpov.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#573317
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:59 am I think dilemma-escape based on interrupts is not such a big deal. Amanda and Co can turn a planned saved trip into the intended nightmare... Non-interrupt/event dilemma escape is more problematical fmpov.
That doesn't address the question of why there exists ANY way to escape dilemma. It's such a fundamental part of the game. Further, in the current state of 1E it's not uncommon to only need to complete 2 missions to win. If you can cheese even one of those combos, then it kinda ruins the point of the game at all. I do not honestly understand why anyone would remotely defend the ability to be able to look at a dilemma mid-attempt then be able to escape it so it essentially loses all effect.

I under stand that interrupts can be dealt with, but why is it on the player to build around an obviously broken mechanic? There is evidence that protecting the integrity of dilemma is a priority. I.e. planet and space scans.
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#578209
Armus wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:39 am The problem with Containment Field isn't the [Ref] icon, it's the ability to cycle it to discard your opponent's cards.

To the extent it needs errata it's to keep it in play permanently ala General Quarters.
What would you think of changing containment field so that cards on it are "released" back to players if it leaves play, instead of forcing it to remain in play? I feel like the main reason the card hasn't been fixed already is getting all of the text to fit on the card. But I think this would do it:

Seeds or plays on table. (Not duplicatable.) A player who uses [DL] , Hidden Fighter, or Going to the Top must first stack a card from hand here. Cards here are reclaimed if this card leaves play or (limit 2), before each player's turn begins. If a player’s card is here at start of a turn, the turn is skipped. Nullifies Destroy Radioactive Garbage Scow (owner loses points), Static Warp Bubble, and Telepathic Alien Kidnappers.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#578210
WeAreBack wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:32 pm
Armus wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:39 am The problem with Containment Field isn't the [Ref] icon, it's the ability to cycle it to discard your opponent's cards.

To the extent it needs errata it's to keep it in play permanently ala General Quarters.
What would you think of changing containment field so that cards on it are "released" back to players if it leaves play, instead of forcing it to remain in play? I feel like the main reason the card hasn't been fixed already is getting all of the text to fit on the card. But I think this would do it:

Seeds or plays on table. (Not duplicatable.) A player who uses [DL] , Hidden Fighter, or Going to the Top must first stack a card from hand here. Cards here are reclaimed if this card leaves play or (limit 2), before each player's turn begins. If a player’s card is here at start of a turn, the turn is skipped. Nullifies Destroy Radioactive Garbage Scow (owner loses points), Static Warp Bubble, and Telepathic Alien Kidnappers.
Definitely an improvement over the status quo, but I still feel it has offensive applications in that format. By making it permanent, you give both players the choice of throttling the game or not, instead of creating a meta play where I can throttle you but then pitch the card and you can't throttle me back.
StateofSTCCG, who is currently listed as a forum troll [unconstructive and disruptive behavior], made this post. Responding to forum trolls is discouraged.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#578216
Removing all [Ref] cards should have been addressed & removed years ago. How many years will it take to do it? Wake me up when it's done. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

The Leadership of CC's "1E Game" Sucks. Let's keep it real. New Leadership maybe will fix it. Some ole sqaud. Same ole problems. [Bar]
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#578218
StateofSTCCG wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:55 pm Removing all [Ref] cards should have been addressed & removed years ago. How many years will it take to do it? Wake me up when it's done. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
You may be shocked by this, but there are players around the world who disagree with this. To avoid alienating a large part of the player base, change must be undertaken slowly and carefully. I strongly suspect that, if you'd played an OTF Complete game in the meta of the past, say, four years, you'd have seen how much progress has already been made -- without creating a schism.

I agree with removing [Ref] over time, but this is just a silly argument from someone whose agenda (as far as I can tell) is always to replace the leadership with unspecified "new" leadership that will supposedly, somehow, magically do a better job.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#578248
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:03 pm You may be shocked by this, but there are players around the world who disagree with this. To avoid alienating a large part of the player base, change must be undertaken slowly and carefully.
You forgot to disclose the exception to the rule....where "if you really really think you're right and they're wrong, you can just entirely disregard the large number of people who disagree with you and foist whatever you want on them, however you want to."
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#578253
You don't have to worry about [Ref] cards if you don't try to do things that [Ref] cards police?
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#578255
winterflames wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:55 pm You don't have to worry about [Ref] cards if you don't try to do things that [Ref] cards police?
That's backwards logic.... What you mean is you don't have to worry about [Ref] cards if you don't care if your opponent wants to do things that [Ref] cards police.

That's the problem. Because your opponent wants to do those things, then you have to either let them, or stock [Ref] to police them. The burden is on you, not the player doing the policeable things.

It's one thing to have to stock cards to help ensure YOU can do something unexpected, it's quite another to have to stock things to ensure YOUR OPPONENT doesn't get to do something unexpected.
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 - Delta Quadrant
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#578258
Well, well... There is Dilemma Lockdown and DH Cheese out there and you contemplate about a game mechanic that is by no means cheesy and fine. Do something about that on-hand cheese please!

@James: You will loose a big part of the player base when you keep pushing an agenda that oversimplifies this game. Damn right. No matter if it comes "slowly and carefully" (hört sich ja so an, als wenn wir einen langsamen Wandel dahin nicht bemerken würden...) or is rushed.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#578267
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:11 am Well, well... There is Dilemma Lockdown and DH Cheese out there and you contemplate about a game mechanic that is by no means cheesy and fine. Do something about that on-hand cheese please!
Pretty sure Balance and Rules Teams are looking at both of these issues. Are you suggesting that the community cannot discuss additional issues while these are being worked on, or must we all wait until these matters are addressed before we discuss other game issues? I don't understand why you and others seem to think that our teams can only handle 1 issue until it's resolved. I am pretty sure that they are capable human beings that can work on multiple issues at the same time, even if progress is slow to ensure they get it right.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#578281
Professor Scott wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:19 am
winterflames wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:55 pm You don't have to worry about [Ref] cards if you don't try to do things that [Ref] cards police?
That's backwards logic.... What you mean is you don't have to worry about [Ref] cards if you don't care if your opponent wants to do things that [Ref] cards police.

That's the problem. Because your opponent wants to do those things, then you have to either let them, or stock [Ref] to police them. The burden is on you, not the player doing the policeable things.

It's one thing to have to stock cards to help ensure YOU can do something unexpected, it's quite another to have to stock things to ensure YOUR OPPONENT doesn't get to do something unexpected.
Ah, but what he does does not really change what my deck does. If I take the minimum steps to protect my reporting location (stratagema, strategic base, no facilities deck), the game then plays the same vs. Solver as it does vs. Armada. I lose with a smile and get to play star trek.

I feel like this opinion of mine should be obvious by now. You Competitive players may not share it, but I have never had a deck shut down by a ref card, nor had to sit out a game because the other guy blew up my only reporting location. Because I don't let them. My Ferengi Trading Post at shielding test with strategic base means my rainbow scientific diplomacy mercenary raiding party deck can survive being fired upon by a pair of tactical cubes. It doesn't win games, but that isn't why I play these games. I submit, my opinion isn't important, but I do still get to hold it.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#578286
Your opinion IS important. Whether or not we agree is irrelevant. I for one, support your right to have it, and and will defend your right to keep it.
StateofSTCCG, who is currently listed as a forum troll [unconstructive and disruptive behavior], made this post. Responding to forum trolls is discouraged.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#578487
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:03 pm
StateofSTCCG wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:55 pm Removing all [Ref] cards should have been addressed & removed years ago. How many years will it take to do it? Wake me up when it's done. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
You may be shocked by this, but there are players around the world who disagree with this. To avoid alienating a large part of the player base, change must be undertaken slowly and carefully. I strongly suspect that, if you'd played an OTF Complete game in the meta of the past, say, four years, you'd have seen how much progress has already been made -- without creating a schism.

I agree with removing [Ref] over time, but this is just a silly argument from someone whose agenda (as far as I can tell) is always to replace the leadership with unspecified "new" leadership that will supposedly, somehow, magically do a better job.
Yes I know there are players that love the REF. Let them play their game. The REF cards suck. They've setback the CC boys for years. I don't blame people for leaving this site. LEADERSHIP IS THE KEY! LISTENING IS THE ANSWER. THERE'S MORE PLAYERS THAT HATE THE REF THEN DON'T. FOLLOW THE TREAD!
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#578548
THERE'S MORE PLAYERS THAT HATE THE REF THEN DON'T.
I won't be so sure. But fine. Ban it. You will face so many issues which Ref takes care off that you won't have fun in your game.

There are a couple of things which I would do, if Ref goes. Amanda and Kevins times 100, Q-Flash auto include, Dr. Noah auto-include, Red-Shirting all the time, Brain Drain times 100 and more, report-with-crew unlimited. You do not want that.
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