[winterflames]

So, I had a fun game with one of my boys the other day where I played a Voyager deck and ran a point loss strategy for my dilemmas.

But despite their tendency towards MegaTeams, I only made him lose 35 points over 4 missions. Part of that was his hitting lack of preparation on the first mission and making sure the rest of the time he had all the requirements so my second Lack whiffed. Part was him hitting 2 Edo Probes, the first one he chose to wait, the second he chose to go on but actually completed the mission, because of the MegaTeams thing. (arsenal failed me and the Dead End was under the Other one.)

I did get one of my The Highers to hit, and I got him with a blackjack but despite everything, he got 4 missions before I got my 3. (He managed to kill both wildman girls, B'elanna, and Janeway. Which hindered me considerably.)

Is there something I am missing with Point drain?

Edit: Re-adding the Oxford comma because my android hates Torres name, apparently.

[Hoss-Drone]

You're probably not missing anything. Point drain as a strategy, irrespective of the fact that you just auto lose to Borg, is ultimately weaker than average because you don't really stop the opponent. If you view the game as a function of average points earned per turn, the fact that you don't stop the opponent means you may actually increase their average. The only effective point loss/drain strat that works right now is hero + a pinch of point loss dilemmas but even that is subject to a beatdown.

It's really only effective in a 2 mission win happy meta like a world's day 1. Which is why design imho needs to prioritize giving it some help and I think, counterintuitively it would be healthier for the game assuming that help also expands it to hit .

[Armus]

Something like this?

Fuck Bonus Points!
Seeds or plays on table. At all times, a player's score is equal to the total of all printed point boxes on missions that they've completed or the total of all printed point boxes on their completed cards. All other sources of Points are ignored.

Go earn yourself some real points already!

Working title of course (probably why @KazonPADD doesn't let me anywhere near Creative... )

Opens up recruit mercenaries and the one, which I consider a feature rather than a bug. Hits HP010, Stop First Contact, and Assimilate Counterpart/Contingency plan on the Borg side, which I have mixed feelings about, but generally consider a net plus.

On the non- side, hits all sorts of things, including Stop Kirk Contact, but still leaves open the old school 2 mission win deck with Hunt for DNA and Pegasus Search (or similar).

Probably a little heavy handed, but I think it addresses a lot of issues. What do y'all think?

[Rachmaninoff]

Point loss is really an attrition strategy and needs to be supported with other card plays and not just point-loss dilemmas. Things like 62nd Rule, Khan!, Hero of the Empire, Toture/Prisoner Escort with captives, etc. Most of these are not huge on their own, but combined with dilemmas can grind an opponent down long enough for you to win.

But I agree with Kevin that it's an uphill battle since you aren't directly depriving your opponent of resources. You may force them to 4-5 missions but the dilemmas are easier than usual. The cards that made it really broken (i.e., you could realistically make it impossible for the opponent to score 100 points) are OTF-banned and -vulnerable.

[boromirofborg]

Is there a good reason to not make the rule something like:

Borg may only affect their own score by cards, but cards the opponent plays can still affect them?

[Hoss-Drone]

Is there a good reason to not make the rule something like:

Borg may only affect their own score by cards, but cards the opponent plays can still affect them?

I think the should still be able to ignore point loss via rules but then think a card or cards should then make them care in situations this creating that balance of "meta policing but you can get around the police with enough investment but that keeps you from other stuff"

[Takket]

62nd rule is a beast. and it doesn't require you to do anything special other than solving missions, which you have to do anyway

[PantsOfTheTalShiar]

I wonder if playing a Voyager deck also made the point loss less effective, assuming your son was a non-DQ deck. Making your opponent travel to more missions isn't such a big deal if all their missions are right next to each other. On the other hand, DQ might mean that The Sheliak is worth a try.

I did once play against a deck by KaronOfBorg that used point loss as part of his Squire's Rules pile. The extra stops made things challenging, but I was still able to win because of what others have already touched on: 1) the main point loss dilemmas are so well known now that once you know your opponent is focusing on point loss, it's not too hard to play around, and 2) I was a three-mission win deck that could score enough points to absorb some point loss without having to resort to a fourth mission.

[Hobie]

As long as bonus point farming is so easy I don't see point drain being effective at all unfortunately. Losing 20 points or less means nothing when Design makes earning 30 bonus points easy just by playing an affiliation the way they were designed to.

[stressedoutatumc]

Is there something I am missing with Point drain?

Edit: Re-adding the Oxford comma because my android hates Torres name, apparently.

I don't know if you are missing anything, but I had the most success with that strategy using Casino Royale cards and Q's Continuum cards, particularly Mandarin Bailiff and His Honor, The High Sheriff of Nottingham. Mind you, I never had a TON of success with it though. I wish it was more viable, tbh. Maybe you could work in Tricyanate Poisoning and White Rabbit or even The Sheliak as additional point loss cards.

[Armus]

Is there something I am missing with Point drain?

Edit: Re-adding the Oxford comma because my android hates Torres name, apparently.

I don't know if you are missing anything, but I had the most success with that strategy using Casino Royale cards and Q's Continuum cards, particularly Mandarin Bailiff and His Honor, The High Sheriff of Nottingham. Mind you, I never had a TON of success with it though. I wish it was more viable, tbh. Maybe you could work in Tricyanate Poisoning and White Rabbit or even The Sheliak as additional point loss cards.

Just remember: the harder you lean into this strategy, the harder you get roflstomped by Borg....

[Rachmaninoff]

Just remember: the harder you lean into this strategy, the harder you get roflstomped by Borg....

If I were to play point drain these days, the idea would be to force a 2-mission deck to solve 3, or a 3-mission deck to solve 4... and, importantly, have some specific reason why that's useful (e.g. extra time to build up a battle force, or solve Council of Warriors, or whatever) rather than doing point loss just because. And you would need a rock-solid anti-[Borg] plan. I'd also use cards like 62nd Rule and Hero that actively help you on top of any point drain...