This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
 
By liberty86
 - New Member
 -  
#574119
My brother and I have been playing a lot of different decks together and have struggled to find the perfect solution to using Tactics cards. The issue mainly is not only is it difficult to acquire many copies of certain tactics but most of them are Federation focused. Many factions don't have any of their own to choose from. I love the ability to have a chance to swing a situation by getting a good tactic though, the mechanic itself seems good, just the game died before they could make more.

What we decided is we built a tactics deck with 2 copies of each tactic that was ever made before the game died. We figured this provided a mix and variety, and the damage dealing is varied in its results, kind of like real ship combat might be like. But still, most cards are focused on just a few factions and the rest get nothing.

What is the ideal balanced solution? Not use tactics at all? Are digital cards a necessity? (We currently just use physical cards that were made). What is the community's consensus on the subject?

I noticed a lot of decklists (our decks are often singleton, casual) run just many copies of one or two different tactics and that's it, it seems lame and redundant. What say everyone else? Really looking forward to seeing the range of opinions.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#574125
liberty86 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:43 pm I noticed a lot of decklists (our decks are often singleton, casual) run just many copies of one or two different tactics and that's it, it seems lame and redundant. What say everyone else? Really looking forward to seeing the range of opinions.
It is definitely lame and definitely guts Decipher's apparent intention that the Battle Bridge side deck would be a source of unpredictability and excitement...

...but it is almost always the strongest way to play tactics. A guaranteed +3/+2 bonus to your attack/defense is just infinitely better than possibly getting that bonus while also possibly drawing something much less good.

Promoting diversity in BBD side decks would be a great thing, but I'm not sure how it should be done.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#574145
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:49 pm
liberty86 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:43 pm I noticed a lot of decklists (our decks are often singleton, casual) run just many copies of one or two different tactics and that's it, it seems lame and redundant. What say everyone else? Really looking forward to seeing the range of opinions.
It is definitely lame and definitely guts Decipher's apparent intention that the Battle Bridge side deck would be a source of unpredictability and excitement...

...but it is almost always the strongest way to play tactics. A guaranteed +3/+2 bonus to your attack/defense is just infinitely better than possibly getting that bonus while also possibly drawing something much less good.

Promoting diversity in BBD side decks would be a great thing, but I'm not sure how it should be done.
Off the top of my head: a card that rewards you for playing a sufficiently large Battle Bridge side deck (20 cards? 30?) with no more than, say, two of any given Tactic, but you have to reveal the entire side deck upon seeding the card so that your opponent can verify it. (Maybe it could be an alternative to Battle Bridge Door so you're not using a seed slot on both, like how there are multiple choices for Starting Effects in SWCCG now, or at least there were when I was still paying attention to that game.) The bonus could be that all your Tactics get +1/+1 and/or you draw an extra Tactic in each battle.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#574146
even if you use only the default tactic for your affiliation, you are still getting a "better experience" (imo) from the base game. Battles have consequences instead of being nothing until the ship blows up.

But I think you are missing one critical detail - tactics are two cards, pretending to be one. There's the tactic half, and the damage half.

Use more dilemmas that damage ships - not you are getting "free" kills.

Use tactics that don't match you ships per se, but do focus the fire on casualties of a certain classification, and then have your dilemmas focus on that as well.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#574148
Mono tactics BBSDs are ok. They're good at what they do, and in the right deck, can obviously be quite effective.

However....

That's not the ONLY way to play a BBSD successfully.

Even if you were to freeze the card pool today, there's a lot of ways to play a multi- tactic BBSD and *also* be effective.

It takes some effort, which a lot of players don't have the time to invest, but when done well it can really pay off. Much like the Dyson Sphere, the BBSD is a toolbox, and if you know what tools you want (and yes sometimes you need a bunch of hammers, other times you need a Swiss army knife), and fill your toolbox accordingly, it's amazing how well you can get the job done.
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By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#574172
Most of what's above is "spot on" as they say. I think you should consider trying out Officer Exchange Program.
You could also house rule that any Battle Bridge cannot have more than two or three of any given [Tac] Tactic. If you both take some aggressive decks using this rule you might some fun and unpredictable interactions. :twocents:
 
By lotjx2
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#574187
Not a fan of tactics. The game didn't need anything that is not part of your deck. Combat for this game was not always thought out but this was unnecessary. Should have made events or interrupts the way to go. Something like a non unique Captain's log.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#574193
lotjx2 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:53 pm Not a fan of tactics. The game didn't need anything that is not part of your deck. Combat for this game was not always thought out but this was unnecessary. Should have made events or interrupts the way to go. Something like a non unique Captain's log.
Something like line of defense?

I don't buy into your argument, seeing as we already had 2 side decks by the 3rd expansion of our game. And I like how you can't predict an engagement's results if your weapons are within 5 points of your opponents shields when [Tac] s are in play.

It makes it feel like anything could happen.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#574200
lotjx2 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:53 pm Not a fan of tactics. The game didn't need anything that is not part of your deck. Combat for this game was not always thought out but this was unnecessary. Should have made events or interrupts the way to go. Something like a non unique Captain's log.
I repeat your opinion, but to me, tactics are one of two things that Premere didn't have that it should have had from the beginning. (Downloading is the other).


And 2E is similar with the interrupts and it's just boring. You know exactly how a combat will resolve 99.99999% of the time.

If I could, I would make the BBSD a mandatory, free seed. That's how integral I think it is to the health of the game overall.
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#574220
A free seeding version of BBD with some kind of restrictions is a must. Right now, it's basically a situation where people feel compelled to stock it regardless of whether it's an important part of their deck's strategy or not.

And in principle, I like the idea of the "seeds for free" version requiring 20 different tactics, with no more than 2 of any card.

However, there are only MAYBE 12-13 tactics that could EVER be practically used in the same deck. For reasons explained below, we need more tactics that are actually usable by all players, under all (or most) circumstances for this to work.

At the moment there are 39 tactics. I break these into 5 categories:
5 highly restricted Tactics that use "requires", unusable under most conditions
1 Borg only tactic, (Borg Cutting Beam)
21 moderately restricted Tactics using the phrase "if you have a" or "if battling" that are just not good unless you meet the conditions (these are the big problem)
7 Tactics using the phrase "if you have a" that are nevertheless not bad in any deck
5 "Open" Tactics of, to put it politely, "varying quality"

5 "Requires"
The five tactics that use "requires" makes them unusable much of the time: you need a [Rom][OS] ship firing, a ship with Energy Dampener, a staffed ship which has three or more staffing icons, Son'a Battleship or Li'seria or a ship at a nebula. Including more than one copy of each of the 4 of these deal with ships is crazy unless you solely play ships that match the kind of ship needed (since you only get 2 tactics and if you draw two tactics that require a condition you can't meet, you're really up a creek with no paddle.)

27 "if you have" "if battling"
One tactic, it must be destroyed, uses "if battling" and is only good against [Self].

There are then 26 more tactics that give you an additional attack and defense bonus based on the phrase "if you have a."

A lot of these so called "tactics" are nothing of the kind, thanks to Decipher. Cards like Ferengi Energy Weapon and Bajoran Phaser Banks aren't so much of a battle tactic as a description of what a ship is armed with. And for the sake of fairness to new affiliations/factions were given cards like Vulcan Particle Beam and Classic Phaser Banks.

Frankly, I'm not clear how it makes any Trek-sense that my Flaxian Scout Vessel can use Breen Disruptor Burst, Bajoran Phaser Banks, Vulcan Particle Beam or Spiral-Wave Disruptor out of nowhere as a tactic. One would think if i was installing some fancy new weapons system it would work like System 5 Disruptors, Tactical Console, or even Grappler.

But I digress. The point is that realistically, most people are never going to stock Bajoran Phaser Banks, Close Quarters Combat or Vulcan Particle Beam or most of the other faction/affiliation specific tactics unless their deck relies heavily on ships that match the appropriate faction/affiliation. (And this particularly sucks if you are playing a deck with ships from multiple affiliations: looking at you Staging Ground decks.)

The 7 useful "if you have" Tactics
There are some exceptions here. I count 7 cards of the 27 "if you have" that are still usful if you can't meet the requirements:
(1) obviously Breen Disruptor Burst with "Attack: 2 Defense: 2" and 35% hull damage as a damage marker,
(2) Full Phaser Spread with "Attack: 3 Defense: 2"
(3) Pulse Phaser Cannons, with "Attack: 4 Defense: 1"
(4) Quantum Torpedo with "Attack: 5 Defense: 0",
(5) Maximum Firepower and "Attack: 6 Defense: -3"
Thee are OK even if you don't have a Breen, Galaxy-class, Defiant-class, Sovereign-Class or "future" ship firing. (This may be because [Fed] always had more types of ships than anyone else, and so needed more general cards, or just bias in favor of [Fed] .) There's also:
(6) Evasive Manuevers, which has the phrase "if you have", but can be used pretty much universally, and is even OK if you have a ship with staffing icons.
(7) Frontal Assault, if you plan on attacking with multiple ships

The 5 Universal tactics
So what does this leave in terms of universal Tactics? Well, there's:
(1) Target These Coordinates
(2) Target Shields
(3) Picard Maneuver
(4) Target Warp Field Coils
(5) "Crimson Forcefield"

Picard Maneuver only gives you the ability to have a 50% of nullifying an attack when you are attacking. Crimson Forcefield is more defensive. Target shields is a bit lame. Target Warp Field Coils is pretty good if you have an extra slot in your Dyson sphere door to put a copy of Engine imbalance, otherwise it is only OK.

Basically, to make a new doorway that increases variety of tactics actually work we need at least 5-6 new tactics that are OK.
 
By liberty86
 - New Member
 -  
#574303
WeAreBack wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:03 pm A free seeding version of BBD with some kind of restrictions is a must. Right now, it's basically a situation where people feel compelled to stock it regardless of whether it's an important part of their deck's strategy or not.

And in principle, I like the idea of the "seeds for free" version requiring 20 different tactics, with no more than 2 of any card.

However, there are only MAYBE 12-13 tactics that could EVER be practically used in the same deck. For reasons explained below, we need more tactics that are actually usable by all players, under all (or most) circumstances for this to work.

At the moment there are 39 tactics. I break these into 5 categories:
5 highly restricted Tactics that use "requires", unusable under most conditions
1 Borg only tactic, (Borg Cutting Beam)
21 moderately restricted Tactics using the phrase "if you have a" or "if battling" that are just not good unless you meet the conditions (these are the big problem)
7 Tactics using the phrase "if you have a" that are nevertheless not bad in any deck
5 "Open" Tactics of, to put it politely, "varying quality"

5 "Requires"
The five tactics that use "requires" makes them unusable much of the time: you need a [Rom][OS] ship firing, a ship with Energy Dampener, a staffed ship which has three or more staffing icons, Son'a Battleship or Li'seria or a ship at a nebula. Including more than one copy of each of the 4 of these deal with ships is crazy unless you solely play ships that match the kind of ship needed (since you only get 2 tactics and if you draw two tactics that require a condition you can't meet, you're really up a creek with no paddle.)

27 "if you have" "if battling"
One tactic, it must be destroyed, uses "if battling" and is only good against [Self].

There are then 26 more tactics that give you an additional attack and defense bonus based on the phrase "if you have a."

A lot of these so called "tactics" are nothing of the kind, thanks to Decipher. Cards like Ferengi Energy Weapon and Bajoran Phaser Banks aren't so much of a battle tactic as a description of what a ship is armed with. And for the sake of fairness to new affiliations/factions were given cards like Vulcan Particle Beam and Classic Phaser Banks.

Frankly, I'm not clear how it makes any Trek-sense that my Flaxian Scout Vessel can use Breen Disruptor Burst, Bajoran Phaser Banks, Vulcan Particle Beam or Spiral-Wave Disruptor out of nowhere as a tactic. One would think if i was installing some fancy new weapons system it would work like System 5 Disruptors, Tactical Console, or even Grappler.

But I digress. The point is that realistically, most people are never going to stock Bajoran Phaser Banks, Close Quarters Combat or Vulcan Particle Beam or most of the other faction/affiliation specific tactics unless their deck relies heavily on ships that match the appropriate faction/affiliation. (And this particularly sucks if you are playing a deck with ships from multiple affiliations: looking at you Staging Ground decks.)

The 7 useful "if you have" Tactics
There are some exceptions here. I count 7 cards of the 27 "if you have" that are still usful if you can't meet the requirements:
(1) obviously Breen Disruptor Burst with "Attack: 2 Defense: 2" and 35% hull damage as a damage marker,
(2) Full Phaser Spread with "Attack: 3 Defense: 2"
(3) Pulse Phaser Cannons, with "Attack: 4 Defense: 1"
(4) Quantum Torpedo with "Attack: 5 Defense: 0",
(5) Maximum Firepower and "Attack: 6 Defense: -3"
Thee are OK even if you don't have a Breen, Galaxy-class, Defiant-class, Sovereign-Class or "future" ship firing. (This may be because [Fed] always had more types of ships than anyone else, and so needed more general cards, or just bias in favor of [Fed] .) There's also:
(6) Evasive Manuevers, which has the phrase "if you have", but can be used pretty much universally, and is even OK if you have a ship with staffing icons.
(7) Frontal Assault, if you plan on attacking with multiple ships

The 5 Universal tactics
So what does this leave in terms of universal Tactics? Well, there's:
(1) Target These Coordinates
(2) Target Shields
(3) Picard Maneuver
(4) Target Warp Field Coils
(5) "Crimson Forcefield"

Picard Maneuver only gives you the ability to have a 50% of nullifying an attack when you are attacking. Crimson Forcefield is more defensive. Target shields is a bit lame. Target Warp Field Coils is pretty good if you have an extra slot in your Dyson sphere door to put a copy of Engine imbalance, otherwise it is only OK.

Basically, to make a new doorway that increases variety of tactics actually work we need at least 5-6 new tactics that are OK.

I like the breakdown here, it illustrates the obstacles in making a casual BBSD with variety, either universal or faction specific.

I love the tactic concept overall, just feel the carpool falls short in providing the cards needed for a unique experience. But for competitive decks just load up on heavy attack cards I guess and you're good to win, I just personally find that repetitive and boring.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#574307
honestly, I'd be fine with most tactics remaining in the +2/+1 range, but I want more variety in the damages.

________

My radical idea for the free seed BBSD is that your tactics do no hull damage.

This was any battles are more interactive, dilemmas get more "free" kills, ships can be stranded with no range, but it's harder to get the NPE of outpost destruction or eliminating all the ships.

It turns battles into what they more should be (IMO), a delaying tactic instead of a lockout.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#574310
What about a tactic which, when you score a regular (not direct) hit, allows you to download a [Tac] as a damage marker if you meet a condition, like "Leader with Printed Navigation x2" or "you have an infiltrator aboard defending ship, they are exposed if infiltrating."

I think those are cool. 8)
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#574349
winterflames wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:02 pm What about a tactic which, when you score a regular (not direct) hit, allows you to download a [Tac] as a damage marker if you meet a condition, like "Leader with Printed Navigation x2" or "you have an infiltrator aboard defending ship, they are exposed if infiltrating."

I think those are cool. 8)
Tactics whose effects change based on skills of the crews involved, or the attributes of the ships are exactly what we need. You could have a Tactic that provides additional attack and/or defense bonuses (or inflicts an additional damage marker) if the ship targeted during the attack does not have a particular skill onboard, or if one force has less of a skill than the other force.

There are also some very interesting instances (the opening of Redemption part II, for example) where one ship uses a star's corona to its advantage in combat. Perhaps a tactic with an attack bonus if your ship has Metaphasic Shields or shields >9 and the ship being targeted by the attack does not?

Or a tactic that gives a bonus if you have a ship involved in the battle that has more of a skill than it has staffing icons? (Navigation, Physics, Astrophysics, Smuggling, Stellar Cartography and OFFICER all seem like good candidates.)

Or one that reduces by one the damage markers a ship takes when hit if its range exceeds the opponent's range? (To represent, y'know, straight up running away during the battle....)

If we don't want people just playing a deck full of 1-2 tactics giving some options like these would be the way to do it.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#574358
WeAreBack wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:58 pmYou could have a Tactic that provides additional attack and/or defense bonuses (or inflicts an additional damage marker) if the ship targeted during the attack does not have a particular skill onboard, or if one force has less of a skill than the other force.
WHOA

This is a huge potential design space, barely touched, and could really shake up tactics. Right now, any rational player stocks tactics that he can more or less guarantee will always work at full power, and then builds his deck to make certain that's true. But if tactics care about the features of the TARGET (and not the features of ATTACKER), you can't build around that. You'd have to place bets on which tactics are needed based on your local meta, stock a few different possibilities, and hope to draw the right one at the right moment.

(This ties back to a longstanding suspicion I have: I don't think the game allows you to draw enough tactics at the start of battle. When there may be only one or two ship battles in an entire game, getting to draw just two cards per battle is not enough to reward diversity.)
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