This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#578599
AllenGould wrote:(a) make them *both* DS9 and TNG, and (b) neuter the enforcement on Continuing Mission / Reshape the Quadrant.
I would imagine them as both, similar to a dual affiliation personnel or dual personnel.

We have precident with the Generations personnel that are both [CF] [1E-TNG], or Lt. Sisko being both [1E-DS9] [OS] .

I don't think it would neuter the enforcement on Reshape the Quadrant, but it might with Continuing Mission.

I think it makes the most treksense.

In all honesty, I really dislike the clunkyness of CM/RtS, and would have 1000% preferred a rule/mass-errata that all preexisting cards with the property logos gained the icons.

The shows had enough crossover that there will always be personnel that should have both. (Quark and Bashir both appeared on TNG, Picard from Emmisary should have both, etc)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#578603
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:01 pm
AllenGould wrote:(a) make them *both* DS9 and TNG, and (b) neuter the enforcement on Continuing Mission / Reshape the Quadrant.
The shows had enough crossover that there will always be personnel that should have both. (Quark and Bashir both appeared on TNG, Picard from Emmisary should have both, etc)
Yup. And this is why we have personae. Not all versions of a personnel need to be able to do all things that personnel did in the show.
 
By MarkB82 (Mark Bedwell)
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#578604
enabrantain wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:14 pm I was joking about the DS9 cards. But I was not joking about the Wolf 359 cards from Emissary, they should get a [1E-TNG] icon.

As for my ideas and jokes about adding other characters to the mix from Voyager and DS9, lets just shelf and scrap those for now. I'm not on the design team, and I don't have their ear. I was just brainstorming possibilities.

Yes, when [EE] came out it was meant to represent 'special training' for the USS Enterprise-E. This made little to no sense, but Decipher didn't want to make the older cards obsolete, so they made the newer cards more difficult to use. But as Nobthehobbit pointed out, CC has used it on the USS Akira and now has given it to several non-main personnel. Now, DS9 characters and ships have [1E-DS9] , and TNG and Generations Characters have [1E-TNG] so wouldn't it make sense to give First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis (and Armada) the [EE] icon? Just like we need a card to give Voyager cards a [Voy] .

And next comes the incentives to use them. Now they could make new ships with the [EE] as a staffing icon, and bonuses if the entire crew is [EE] or if you have a certain amount of [EE] on board . Yes, dinosaurs like the USS Jupiter and USS Thunderchild wont have these built in, but cards that use [EE] to provide bonuses would still affect them.

It all comes down to the fact that this is one heck of a big game for what became a huge franchise. And the Federation is the biggest faction. It needs to be broken down into groups. Some of it is due to [MQ] and [1E-DQ] . And then other options became [CF] , [OS] , [Maq] , [TE] , [KCA] , [1E-DS9], [22] and [1E-TNG] . You don't have to use them, but they do help bring sense to the Star Trek CCG universe. Anyways, in the end the CC might not even take this route, and we wont know for another two expansions. And just to clarify, I have no problems with Admiral Janeway and Mathew Dougherty fighting the Romulans from the bridge of the USS Enterprise-E, it's exactly what Star Trek CCG was made for.
Honestly what’s been done with the E and been ignored for about 10 years really puts me off playing. Unlike Ds9, the motion picture and TNG, the E doesn’t actually have enough content to be it’s own deck. My view is play engines should be harder to mix, not cards. They should be used to encourage play. But the E was never intended to be used as something separate from TNG, hence including ships who’s commanders are TNG.

My view to fix the play engine, just not let it play [1E-AU] cards, that’s a lot cards. Don’t wanna do that, include first contact as [1E-TNG]
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#578605
Just so we are clear, back towards the beginning they said "This set is coming! We hope you guys will like the cool stuff we are getting you!"

And then the rest of the thread is basically "I haven't seen it, but I can already tell you it's too little, too late!" right?

Because that's what I am reading here.
 
By MarkB82 (Mark Bedwell)
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#578607
winterflames wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:52 pm Just so we are clear, back towards the beginning they said "This set is coming! We hope you guys will like the cool stuff we are getting you!"

And then the rest of the thread is basically "I haven't seen it, but I can already tell you it's too little, too late!" right?

Because that's what I am reading here.
I joined this site over 10 years ago, nothing has changed. The focus has been on everything else, which is cool to s point, I’ve raised this s few times over the years, the answers have always use it with these cards (like bajor tesla). I've been told for years it will be fixed and hasn't. I like the game, can we open some options up.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#578608
MarkB82 wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:26 pm
winterflames wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:52 pm Just so we are clear, back towards the beginning they said "This set is coming! We hope you guys will like the cool stuff we are getting you!"

And then the rest of the thread is basically "I haven't seen it, but I can already tell you it's too little, too late!" right?

Because that's what I am reading here.
I joined this site over 10 years ago, nothing has changed. The focus has been on everything else, which is cool to s point, I’ve raised this s few times over the years, the answers have always use it with these cards (like bajor tesla). I've been told for years it will be fixed and hasn't. I like the game, can we open some options up.
What if I told you new options were coming... soon... :shifty:
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#578611
MidnightLich wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:03 pmWe have a expansion in testing right now that is all about the TNG movies, and if things go well it will be out later this year. There are a few new toys for [EE]. We shall see how they shake out.
OKCoyote wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:07 pm I can't say anything specific at this point, but this is certainly something we're looking at as we are working on design for a new set covering the TNG movies.
 
By MarkB82 (Mark Bedwell)
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#578621
Armus wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:31 pm
MarkB82 wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:26 pm
winterflames wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:52 pm Just so we are clear, back towards the beginning they said "This set is coming! We hope you guys will like the cool stuff we are getting you!"

And then the rest of the thread is basically "I haven't seen it, but I can already tell you it's too little, too late!" right?

Because that's what I am reading here.
I joined this site over 10 years ago, nothing has changed. The focus has been on everything else, which is cool to s point, I’ve raised this s few times over the years, the answers have always use it with these cards (like bajor tesla). I've been told for years it will be fixed and hasn't. I like the game, can we open some options up.
What if I told you new options were coming... soon... :shifty:
Really depends what those options are.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#578622
enabrantain wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:14 pmBut as Nobthehobbit pointed out, CC has used it on the USS Akira and now has given it to several non-main personnel.
That wasn't really my point.

My point was that up until now, [EE] seems to me to have been developed with the thought in mind that it would be on a limited number of personnel and have a limited number of uses. That pool of personnel has expanded (Jae, Kell Perim and Worf, to name the personas who've received it in the CC era) and it's been used on a few more cards (Temptations of the Flesh, Mission Briefing PADD, Federation Flagship: Relaunched, Launch the Phoenix, Protect Historic Encounter, U.S.S. Akira and U.S.S. Enterprise-E), but still within that limited scope.

I'm afraid of too many things breaking and becoming too powerful if [EE] becomes a faction icon, because of all the personnel who would have to have it if made. There's effectively precedent for treating the First Contact expansion icon as a faction icon (and nothing but a faction icon) with the aforementioned Martinez and Suzanne Dumont. (And let's not forget, Decipher would call out expansion icons with cards like Visit Cochrane Memorial and Alliance Nor. Admittedly, they never printed an expansion icon on a card not in that expansion, but they did occasionally use expansion icons for gameplay purposes.) I think, given the precedents henceforth established, it does far less harm to the game to issue two errata and print future [Fed] personnel from First Contact, Insurrection and Nemesis who shouldn't have [EE] with the First Contact expansion icon. (The examples that come to mind, if you'll forgive the links to Second Edition cards, are Worf from Insurrection, since he was still assigned to DS9 at the time, and his First Contact version had [Cmd] for that reason, and Kelly from Nemesis, since he probably should only have [Stf] , like numerous personnel in the First Contact expansion.)

Maybe Design has found some elegant solution to this problem that lets [EE] be the faction icon without breaking things and without limiting future designers. But I can't see it, and my instinct would be to go straight to the answer that I think is 99.9% likely not to break anything instead of putting potential solutions that would likely have to run through a lot of playtesting and rebalancing, and still have a decent chance of breaking once in the wild, in front of playtesters and having what I suspect would be a pretty good chance of not being workable anyway.

(The way I justify the Akira's attribute boost is that the class prototype ship possibly uses some advanced systems that personnel trained on the Enterprise-E's systems can get more juice out of than other people can. It might have been taken out of the Jupiter and the Thunderchild in favour of more standard systems.)
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