This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
User avatar
 
By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#581284
My first instinct is no, the ship must do nothing but move, and the interrupt is telling the ship to do it.

However...., the dilemma resolution guide says "This is a “moving required action”; see “actions - required” in Glossary for rules. Borg must play out dilemma but do not score points."

The glossary says:
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn


So I'm sticking with no. Cloaked Manuers does not cloak the ship, it allows the ship to cloak an additional time.
User avatar
 
By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#581286
boromirofborg wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:55 pm My first instinct is no, the ship must do nothing but move, and the interrupt is telling the ship to do it.

However...., the dilemma resolution guide says "This is a “moving required action”; see “actions - required” in Glossary for rules. Borg must play out dilemma but do not score points."

The glossary says:
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn


So I'm sticking with no. Cloaked Manuers does not cloak the ship, it allows the ship to cloak an additional time.
So that’s my the rub in our game tonight. I know I cannot voluntarily cloaked ship but how I’m interpreting cloaked maneuvers is that it doesn’t allow me to optionally cloak. It’s cloaks the ship as a non-optional action. If that is the case, I would argue that the ship isn’t voluntarily cloaking and should be allowed under Cytherians.
User avatar
 
By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#581287
stressedoutatumc wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:54 pm
boromirofborg wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:55 pm My first instinct is no, the ship must do nothing but move, and the interrupt is telling the ship to do it.

However...., the dilemma resolution guide says "This is a “moving required action”; see “actions - required” in Glossary for rules. Borg must play out dilemma but do not score points."

The glossary says:
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn


So I'm sticking with no. Cloaked Manuers does not cloak the ship, it allows the ship to cloak an additional time.
So that’s my the rub in our game tonight. I know I cannot voluntarily cloaked ship but how I’m interpreting cloaked maneuvers is that it doesn’t allow me to optionally cloak. It’s cloaks the ship as a non-optional action. If that is the case, I would argue that the ship isn’t voluntarily cloaking and should be allowed under Cytherians.
I would agree with your assessment of how Cloaked Maneuvers works, but you as the player are choosing to take an action that results in the ship doing something other than "do nothing but travel to far end of spaceline at normal speed."

Near-Warp Transport is another [1E-Int] that in this case "Allows beaming from ship to a neighboring spaceline location." Granted, this card does not force you to beam personnel, but it would allow the ship to do something other than "do nothing but travel to far end of spaceline at normal speed.", and is therefore not allowed. I would categorizing playing CM in this category as well.
User avatar
 
By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#581288
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:56 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:54 pm
boromirofborg wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:55 pm My first instinct is no, the ship must do nothing but move, and the interrupt is telling the ship to do it.

However...., the dilemma resolution guide says "This is a “moving required action”; see “actions - required” in Glossary for rules. Borg must play out dilemma but do not score points."

The glossary says:
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn


So I'm sticking with no. Cloaked Manuers does not cloak the ship, it allows the ship to cloak an additional time.
So that’s my the rub in our game tonight. I know I cannot voluntarily cloaked ship but how I’m interpreting cloaked maneuvers is that it doesn’t allow me to optionally cloak. It’s cloaks the ship as a non-optional action. If that is the case, I would argue that the ship isn’t voluntarily cloaking and should be allowed under Cytherians.
I would agree with your assessment of how Cloaked Maneuvers works, but you as the player are choosing to take an action that results in the ship doing something other than "do nothing but travel to far end of spaceline at normal speed."

Near-Warp Transport is another [1E-Int] that in this case "Allows beaming from ship to a neighboring spaceline location." Granted, this card does not force you to beam personnel, but it would allow the ship to do something other than "do nothing but travel to far end of spaceline at normal speed.", and is therefore not allowed. I would categorizing playing CM in this category as well.
I see what you are saying, but Near Warp “allows”. Cloaked Maneuvers does say allow, it says a ship cloaks. So if that is ALSO a required action, then how do you resolve 2 required actions?
User avatar
 
By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#581296
I think he was trying to point out that you can't play the interrupt because you can't cloak the ship while it is on a Do Nothing But Journey, and playing the interrupt would cloak the ship.

Since you can't perform the card's action, you can't play the card.
User avatar
 
By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#581301
Exactly, 1E has that rule for card playing a card, that if you can't do all of the all of the action(s), you can do any of it(them), as opposed to 2E's do as much as you can.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#581334
Take this for what it's worth, since it isn't blue text, but my Worlds Day One deck (which was based mostly on Cloaked Maneuvers) would have been a lot simpler if I hadn't had to stock Space-Time Portal x2 specifically to deal with Cytherians -- which I had to do precisely because Cytherians is just about the only dilemma I might face where I couldn't use C.M. to cloak immediately after the attempt.

(The STPs ended up being super useful overall, though. The report-with-crew function is a great way to quickly deploy to another quadrant if Nelvana Trap isn't firing, or to reinforce an isolated ship well down the spaceline. TMW, with its anti-STP function, is a lot less ubiquitous than it was when I first returned to the game.)
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#581339
I was going to be pretty firm on the "playing external cards isn't an action the ship does"... but the Required Actions section calls out Cytherians specifically in the example that you can use things like Wormholes to get closer, but *not* to move further away.

So, it does seem like current state says if you're not allowed to cloak, you can't use a 3rd party action to do it for you.
 
 - New Member
 -  
#581376
I think the issue here is that it is the card that is cloaking the ship, not the player taking the "cloaking" action.

Generally speaking, cards override rules and more specific rules override more general ones.

So my interpretation would be that Cloaking Maneuvers (a card) would override the the rule regarding required actions; and/or the more specific action taken by Cloaking Maneuver overrides the more general "Must do nothing but" action of Cytherians.

However, I think there is some ambiguity in Cloaking Maneuvers, too. It says the ship can cloak even if stopped or previously decloaked that turn. Are we to interpret those examples as the only exceptions that Cloaking Maneuvers is allowed to override or merely as representations to clarify that, yes, you can cloak even if this contradicts the rules about when you can and cannot cloak.
User avatar
 
By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#581379
drafterman wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:38 am I think the issue here is that it is the card that is cloaking the ship, not the player taking the "cloaking" action.
For me part of it is the wording that CM uses. If it said "cloak target ship", then it would be clear that CM is causing the cloak. However, when it says "target ship cloaks" that's the card telling the other card to do something, and providing a window of time in which to do it.


To rephrase it: If I had an interrupt that says "target leader may initiate battle immediately, even if Fed", I wouldn't assume that it would work if the leader was stopped. It's letting me ignore the fed restrictions, and even letting me do it during an opponent's turn, but it's not overcoming the basic cost of being stopped.
 
 - New Member
 -  
#581392
boromirofborg wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:40 am
drafterman wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:38 am I think the issue here is that it is the card that is cloaking the ship, not the player taking the "cloaking" action.
For me part of it is the wording that CM uses. If it said "cloak target ship", then it would be clear that CM is causing the cloak. However, when it says "target ship cloaks" that's the card telling the other card to do something, and providing a window of time in which to do it.


To rephrase it: If I had an interrupt that says "target leader may initiate battle immediately, even if Fed", I wouldn't assume that it would work if the leader was stopped. It's letting me ignore the fed restrictions, and even letting me do it during an opponent's turn, but it's not overcoming the basic cost of being stopped.
I think the key word there is "may" if it simply said "target leader initiates battle immediately" that's different. It stops being a voluntary action and therefore is not restricted by required actions limitations.

Let me ask you this, could I play Cloaked Maneuvers and not Cloak the Ship?
User avatar
 
By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#581404
@drafterman Fair, but I think with/without the may would be the same. I think the interrupt would have to say "initiates battle, even if stopped". (Which Cloaked Maneuvers does)

No, I don't think you could play CM and not cloak the ship, but I think this is a case where you just cannot play CM.
User avatar
 
By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#581407
boromirofborg wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:31 pm No, I don't think you could play CM and not cloak the ship, but I think this is a case where you just cannot play CM.
:thumbsup:
User avatar
 
By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#581488
AllenGould wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:14 pm I was going to be pretty firm on the "playing external cards isn't an action the ship does"... but the Required Actions section calls out Cytherians specifically in the example that you can use things like Wormholes to get closer, but *not* to move further away.

So, it does seem like current state says if you're not allowed to cloak, you can't use a 3rd party action to do it for you.
I appreciate the response, but here's why I disagree. I think there has to be a difference whether I am performing the action voluntarily or by a 3rd party card. For example:

By the reasoning above, if I have a ship that starts my turn cloaked, then I uncloak the ship during my turn, and then used Cloaked Maneuvers during my turn to re-cloak the ship, then there's nothing that can force me to uncloak during my turn. Not even Tachyon Detection Grid because the rules state that I can cloak or decloak only once per turn. And, as stated above, you can't play a card that makes my ship do something it cannot.

But that's just one example. I would argue there are more like STP. Unless I'm not understanding how BCSWB is using it, how can he use a STP to return a ship that "can do nothing but"? If STP can return a ship that "can do nothing but" how does CM not also override the required action of Cytherians? Both are 3rd party cards that also provide a non-optional action. I would also point out the CM card also sets this precedence since it specifically and on purpose breaks the cloaking rule.

I'm not trying to me argumentative or anything, but I would appreciate this usage being considered. Thanks!

Still a few weeks left to get registered for the f[…]

Still a few weeks left to get registered for the f[…]

1EFQ: Game of two halves

Or maybe keep your unsolicited snark to yo[…]

Vulcan Lander and its ability

What constrains this strategy is the number of c[…]