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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#583745
I was simply pointing out that some have said that downloader dilemmas make 1e like 2e by giving you the ability to "make a combo on the fly".

However, I see it as 1e being true to itself (downloading, seed card investment, advanced planning) but growing up and yes, taking advantage of one of the things 2e got better - on the fly dilemma interaction.

In that sense I see it making 1e the fully superior game - 1e is already better at "in game interaction" and more dilemma downloading would bolster it.

I don't think every 2e dilemma should be a 1e dilemma. 🙂. I DO think dilemmas like garanian bolites, common thief, impassable door, etc need help still. Given that downloaders are now a thing, it's time to just fully committ to it and bring every dilemma possible "up to speed" but also create some limited situations for some combo-ness to be made. Dilemma combos are absolutely the type of card combos that make trek ccg fun.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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#583747
I was the one who observed that it makes 1E more like 2E, not to pooh-pooh the idea of more downloaders / boosters / etc. (which, again, I support), but to cabin it just a titch...

...and also to (subtly) make the point that making 1E more like 2E is not inherently a bad thing. Stealing good bits from 2E and making them better is good design. The trick is identifying which bits of 2E were good ideas and which ones weren't. (I really dislike 2E's overall dilemma system, but adopting that dilemma system wholesale isn't what's being proposed here.)
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#583748
I think dilemma downloading gives 1E something closer to what would have been a good design from the outset, which is a variable seed cost.

As in, so cards cost 1 seed, some cost .5 (though. like Space, cough), and some cost 2.

Would have been an interesting way to balance things.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Community Contributor
#583754
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:17 pm (I really dislike 2E's overall dilemma system, but adopting that dilemma system wholesale isn't what's being proposed here.)
No, but randomizing dilemma combos (Squire) and the concept download and seed (any number of cards) are both 1e translations of 2e concepts that have brought the games closer together (and been one of several data points in the whole "OTF is really 1.5e" argument).

I think at this point the Starship of any pretense of 1e "purity" has long left the space dock, and to argue otherwise is bordering on risable nonsense.

Now whether or not that's a *good* thing is an exercise left to the reader, and I'm sure the spectrum of opinions on THAT question is broader than that of visible light and maybe UV and Infrared thrown in too.

We are where we are, and while the game could always benefit from some tweaks, I think overall the game is at least fun. I actually agree with @Hoss-Drone that using existing modern 1e tech and expanding it to new specific cards isn't something to be feared or shunned.

I retired from "pure" 1e in 2002. I'm ok leaving it there. I'm a simple man: give me a game that's fun to play, has multiple different competitive decktypes, sprinkle in some strategic complexity, and keep the most important thing - the Star Trek vibe - going strong.

While I have my own nits to pick on all of those fronts (still waiting on #fixDorianCollins), the fact that what I have are mostly nits tells me that The Big Picture doesn't look all that bad.
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First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#583758
Armus wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:54 pm
No, but randomizing dilemma combos (Squire) and the concept download and seed (any number of cards) are both 1e translations of 2e concepts that have brought the games closer together (and been one of several data points in the whole "OTF is really 1.5e" argument).
Maybe I didn't get invited to those meetings, but I don't remember 2E being brought up at all during the development of download and seed. Heck, I didn't even know 2E *had* anything resembling that mechanic (I thought it was all shuffly-decks and counting personnel and cards buried under missions and algebra)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Community Contributor
#583759
AllenGould wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:59 pm
Armus wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:54 pm
No, but randomizing dilemma combos (Squire) and the concept download and seed (any number of cards) are both 1e translations of 2e concepts that have brought the games closer together (and been one of several data points in the whole "OTF is really 1.5e" argument).
Maybe I didn't get invited to those meetings, but I don't remember 2E being brought up at all during the development of download and seed. Heck, I didn't even know 2E *had* anything resembling that mechanic (I thought it was all shuffly-decks and counting personnel and cards buried under missions and algebra)
A few examples from both the Decipher and CC eras:

Machinations
Thought Maker
Storage Compartment (sort of)
The Manheim Effect
Vault of Tomorrow

Uninvited
Voluntary Withdrawal (sort of)

For reference, "dilemma stack" is the 2e functional equivalent of dilemmas under a mission in 1e. The key difference is the dilemmas faced change each mission attempt. However, as the above examples show, there's a bit more to it than "draw cards, play what you drew" - you CAN do it that way, but there's ways to introduce more strategy into it.

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