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By lotjx2
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#583544
Like that we are getting Kyle but shouldn't he be captured instead of NA. He didn't get turned like Chekhov just stranded. He is still a Federation member even he is left to die.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#583546
I think the point is for Khan decks to be able to use Commander Kyle as [NA] if they want. He only turns to NA if your Khan is in play, not Khan in in play. Since he has Khan in lore he is not discarded by Revenge Is A Dish Best Served Cold so he doesn't need to be Ceti Eeled.
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By Mugato
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E World Runner-Up 2023
#583548
Even though Commander Kyle turns to NA with Khan, it restricts you from ever using The Genesis Device. Commander Kyle takes away the option to use The Genesis Device on your opponent after you've scored some points with it from Revenge Is A Dish Best Served Cold.

playing an affiliation
You are "playing [affilation or faction]" or are an "[affiliation or faction name] player" if you control or have controlled at least one card belonging to that affiliation or faction (or any [BO] Borg Use Only card, if [Bor] Borg), or used a multi-affiliation card you have controlled in that affiliation mode at any time during the game, regardless of whether any such cards are still in play. Only cards which you own are considered when determining if you are playing an affiliation or faction. See faction.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#583549
Mugato wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:19 pm Even though Commander Kyle turns to NA with Khan, it restricts you from ever using The Genesis Device. Commander Kyle takes away the option to use The Genesis Device on your opponent after you've scored some points with it from Revenge Is A Dish Best Served Cold.

playing an affiliation
You are "playing [affilation or faction]" or are an "[affiliation or faction name] player" if you control or have controlled at least one card belonging to that affiliation or faction (or any [BO] Borg Use Only card, if [Bor] Borg), or used a multi-affiliation card you have controlled in that affiliation mode at any time during the game, regardless of whether any such cards are still in play. Only cards which you own are considered when determining if you are playing an affiliation or faction. See faction.
Touche' Good catch!
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#583550
What if you report Kyle while you have Khan in play, though?
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By Mugato
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E World Runner-Up 2023
#583554
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:42 pm What if you report Kyle while you have Khan in play, though?
Good question. What’s the timing of “becoming?”
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#583556
Also, what if you want to play Commander Kyle to your Klingon Outpost with Khan in play (and no treaty).
when a card "becomes" a characteristic (such as a new gender, species, or affiliation), it gains the new characteristic and simultaneously loses any other characteristics of the same kind. For example, if Mardah is affected by Frame of Mind, she gains [NA] but loses [Baj] and [Fer]. If affected by Q-Type Android, she ceases to be Bajoran species and becomes Q-type android or human species.
(Become, Glossary)
Some personnel have limitations listed just above their skills in an area called a "restriction box." These are not skills and are not affected by cards that affect skills.
(Restriction Box, ibid).
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#583561
I guess the real question is, does the restriction box text activate before the card enters play? Generally, such activation is specified as "even if not in play", such as on Comfort Women. If the text is subject to post-reporting activation, then does it turn off when he is in Stasis; for instance, does he return to [Fed] if under the influence of Quantum Singularity Lifeforms?
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#583563
Mugato wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:09 pm
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:42 pm What if you report Kyle while you have Khan in play, though?
Good question. What’s the timing of “becoming?”
Of course, you'd have to keep Khan in play for the entire time you have Kyle, even if this works, otherwise Kyle would revert to [Fed] and you'd definitely be playing Federation.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#583565
I don’t think the intent with the Khan deck is to use the gametext of Genesis, but to use it to score 30 points per turn from Revenge. If you want to use Genesis to double mission points, you have to sacrifice the 30 points at the start of next turn for the chance of a doubled mission later that next turn. If you’ve concentrated on acquiring Genesis and so already completed a planet mission, you’ll want space to avoid issues with Intermix Ratio/The Big Picture… and of course Genesis doesn’t really help with increasing points from space missions.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#583568
KazonPADD wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:32 pm I don’t think the intent with the Khan deck is to use the gametext of Genesis, but to use it to score 30 points per turn from Revenge. If you want to use Genesis to double mission points, you have to sacrifice the 30 points at the start of next turn for the chance of a doubled mission later that next turn. If you’ve concentrated on acquiring Genesis and so already completed a planet mission, you’ll want space to avoid issues with Intermix Ratio/The Big Picture… and of course Genesis doesn’t really help with increasing points from space missions.
That's true, but you could well solve two planet missions (first for Genesis, second doubled from Genesis) to get you to 80 mission points, plus two turns from Revenge (unless your opponent has Kirk, obviously) for 60 points. It's a situation that could well arise so a ruling would be useful.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#583705
I held onto this reply over the weekend so I could run it by Rules and make sure it's correct. Fortunately, nob made the same point I was going to make:

If Khan is already in play when you report Commander Kyle (and I assume that he will be!), then Commander Kyle is [NA] when you gain control of him, and so you are still not "playing [Fed]." Commander Kyle's restriction box is not a "selected or shared feature" like Soong-Type Android's classification. It is more like the effect of a Treaty card or Does Not Work With clause, and is effective when you declare the report. So just seed/play Khan first, and Kyle should be fine.

You should not read anything into the absence of the "even if not in play" text. That text snuck into the game partially by mistake, it was never essential, and, to avoid misleading people, we have stopped using it. (It is Rules' hope that Assignment: Earth will be the last card to use that phrase.)

If Khan leaves play at any point (or becomes in play "for uniqueness only", or you lose control of him while retaining control of Commander Kyle, or otherwise stops being able to maintain Kyle in [NA] mode), Commander Kyle switches back to [Fed] mode. This is consistent with how other "becomes" cards work. However, this is the second time in three months that I've come across players who read the "become" glossary entry and think that "become" effects are permanent even if the underlying card is nullified, so I think probably the "become" glossary entry needs a minor clarification. *adds to the list*

That all sound good? Clear as mud?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#583710
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:31 pm I held onto this reply over the weekend so I could run it by Rules and make sure it's correct. Fortunately, nob made the same point I was going to make:

If Khan is already in play when you report Commander Kyle (and I assume that he will be!), then Commander Kyle is [NA] when you gain control of him, and so you are still not "playing [Fed]." Commander Kyle's restriction box is not a "selected or shared feature" like Soong-Type Android's classification. It is more like the effect of a Treaty card or Does Not Work With clause, and is effective when you declare the report. So just seed/play Khan first, and Kyle should be fine.

You should not read anything into the absence of the "even if not in play" text. That text snuck into the game partially by mistake, it was never essential, and, to avoid misleading people, we have stopped using it. (It is Rules' hope that Assignment: Earth will be the last card to use that phrase.)

If Khan leaves play at any point (or becomes in play "for uniqueness only", or you lose control of him while retaining control of Commander Kyle, or otherwise stops being able to maintain Kyle in [NA] mode), Commander Kyle switches back to [Fed] mode. This is consistent with how other "becomes" cards work. However, this is the second time in three months that I've come across players who read the "become" glossary entry and think that "become" effects are permanent even if the underlying card is nullified, so I think probably the "become" glossary entry needs a minor clarification. *adds to the list*

That all sound good? Clear as mud?
Fair or unfair we live in a world where many of not all of us play other games. Become effects in most other games are permanent. Given that the become entry doesn't say that they end, and doesn't even imply it - I question whether or not yours and rules interpretation is fully thought out in this matter.

Tie this to the other discussion about can/can't and I'm really having a hard time with this....if I have to simply accept that can't beats can even though it's not codified because "ccg reasons" then why do we have to accept that becomes is temporary even though "while this is in play" is the already accepted language to show that there's a limit in that instance. Seems like it should be permanent "for unwritten ccg reasons".
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#583713
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:28 pm Fair or unfair we live in a world where many of not all of us play other games. Become effects in most other games are permanent. Given that the become entry doesn't say that they end, and doesn't even imply it - I question whether or not yours and rules interpretation is fully thought out in this matter.
By that logic, Space Amoeba permanently changes all ship and personnel stats?

Other games are handy for looking around, but different games are just that - different games.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#583714
AllenGould wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:46 pm
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:28 pm Fair or unfair we live in a world where many of not all of us play other games. Become effects in most other games are permanent. Given that the become entry doesn't say that they end, and doesn't even imply it - I question whether or not yours and rules interpretation is fully thought out in this matter.
By that logic, Space Amoeba permanently changes all ship and personnel stats?

Other games are handy for looking around, but different games are just that - different games.
Actually it might be because the bigger issue here then is simply consistency and actually making sure the rules are the rules.
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