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By ShipNerd
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#583804
https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?cardID=7340

hm another universal draw engine for non-themed decks, is that the intention? just download Sybok with the Pardise city outpost without galactic army of light, play universal guys, mutate release the pain each turn or convert a bunsh of them with masaka transformation. Simply have a large enought deck to not draw release the pain but download it each turn. The mission is for fed, rom, kli and non-alinged, so basicly all non-borg (alpha) quadrant non-themed decks. And downloading the limiting card (https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?cardID=7339) is a maybe not a must, if card is seeded. Do you wish to give more draw engines for decks that use any personel/ships without being limited to a theme? Because i am concerned that the game gets faster, with more personnel plays.

Or did i miss something?

Good that there is a way to get release the pain for sybok themes anyway.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#583814
I don't think it's *quite* as bad as you think. (but might be.)

I started theory crafting a bit when the card was revealed this morning.

RtP downloads when you play a ❖ person, and in most cases that's a minor downside.

So that basically makes your ❖ personnel not cost a card draw, or at least cost less than 1 draw. And this is costing you at minimum what, 2-3 seed slots?

- He Took Away My Pain
- Paradise City
- Obelisk of Masala to guarantee the first MT

So every ❖ personnel replaces the card, but to turn that replacement into a real card, you have to spend a card play on Masaka.

Most free report engines (aside from [Bor] ) are fairly limited in what ❖ personnel they work with. (Or New Arrivals, which has it's own limit)

I see the danger, but it's a way to stay card neutral for ❖, not nessecarily go positive. And I don't know that a new draw engine that requires 2-3 seed slots and a card play every 2-3 turns to cover the draws into actual gas is as dangerous as it looks at first glance.


Edit: I think when I try to do nasty things, my first try will be one of the [1E-DQ] affiliations. Then I'm spending the additional seed slot of a mission I can't attempt, but I have decent odds of being left alone and probably a better then average ❖ pool
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By ShipNerd
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#583820
Well the ❖ indeed idealy play for free or is part of a ship report with crew. Or it uses the normal card play an others are played for free.

I am not worred about "2-3" seed cards. The outpost is [NA] and can be used by anyone. The download of Sybok gives me a draw (by [DL] 1x release the pain). Sybok may still used as late game redshirt for the mission.

So in the end its 1 seed card for a [Inc] that gives a net gain of mostly 1 card draw per turn. 1 seed for 1 draw is usually a good deal for draw engines. In comparison to the good duck-blind engine, i only need one personel who is save in the outpost (and gives the [DL] draw), in comparrison to 2 anthroplogist that needs to be there and needs protection by a landed ship.

The more draw engines there are the more they can be combined. But if that is the wish for 1e, then thats how it is. I do not have to play OTF, after all.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#583821
IF this is even a thing it seems like it's more of a turn 3-4, masaka reset the hand to dig for more personnel with skills for the late game push. Which will be fine. My initial impression is that any attempt to cycle your hand from turn 1 will face diminishing returns or a stalled engine because it will have to pack enough mutation/etc that there's a likely stall out.

That said, my first go would be with Handshake full hand rebuy function, not mutation.
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#583823
ShipNerd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:57 am So in the end its 1 seed card for a [Inc] that gives a net gain of mostly 1 card draw per turn. 1 seed for 1 draw is usually a good deal for draw engines. In comparison to the good duck-blind engine, i only need one personel who is save in the outpost (and gives the [DL] draw), in comparrison to 2 anthroplogist that needs to be there and needs protection by a landed ship.
Here's the downsides as I see it.

0. If you're not on the Sybok Plan, RTP is a dead/blank card to you.
1. Your "free draw" is RTP, not a random card. Duck Blind will give you a useful card, this gives you a blank.
2. Your free draws are limited by the number of RTP you stock, which means the more you lean on those freebies the more you'll also be drawing those RTPs instead of the personnel you need to play in order to get those draws for free.
3. If you're adding more cards to cycle those RTPs, that's *also* more cards you're drawing that is just engine fluffery. (And looking back on #2, you could easily end up just drawing more engine fluffery instead of the stuff you want.)

All that said - feel free to prove me wrong. ;)
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By ShipNerd
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#583830
AllenGould wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:10 am
ShipNerd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:57 am So in the end its 1 seed card for a [Inc] that gives a net gain of mostly 1 card draw per turn. 1 seed for 1 draw is usually a good deal for draw engines. In comparison to the good duck-blind engine, i only need one personel who is save in the outpost (and gives the [DL] draw), in comparrison to 2 anthroplogist that needs to be there and needs protection by a landed ship.
Here's the downsides as I see it.

0. If you're not on the Sybok Plan, RTP is a dead/blank card to you.
1. Your "free draw" is RTP, not a random card. Duck Blind will give you a useful card, this gives you a blank.
2. Your free draws are limited by the number of RTP you stock, which means the more you lean on those freebies the more you'll also be drawing those RTPs instead of the personnel you need to play in order to get those draws for free.
3. If you're adding more cards to cycle those RTPs, that's *also* more cards you're drawing that is just engine fluffery. (And looking back on #2, you could easily end up just drawing more engine fluffery instead of the stuff you want.)

All that said - feel free to prove me wrong. ;)
Would need to build a 1000 card deck again. so nah. I use time diffently now.
I have no need to prove anything anymore, gameplaywise. Feel free to have your opinion. There is no need that you take mine or i yours :)
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By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#583879
I could see a very effective brunt's drop deck with this. You are playing a bunch of Univ personnel each turn. Use obelisk to cycle fresh cards every turn and drop again.

bajoran raiders could also work. Even with its only a game, you are getting back all the personell you use as long as they are univ
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#583889
pfti wrote:I could see a very effective brunt's drop deck with this. You are playing a bunch of Univ personnel each turn. Use obelisk to cycle fresh cards every turn and drop again.

bajoran raiders could also work. Even with its only a game, you are getting back all the personell you use as long as they are univ
I'm always surprised that Reporting with crew counts for triggering report triggers for all the crew that come along with it. I get why, but intuitively, I would think that you shouldn't be able to get all the benefits of reporting, beyond the personnel itself, for the cost of 1 ship.
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
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#584009
ShipNerd's intuition is spot on. I feel overwhelmingly confident this card is busted. Of course there are plenty of details, but it certainly enables drawing an indefinite number of cards, probably by the second or third turn.
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By ShipNerd
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#584021
I asked at the beginning of this tread instead of claiming. Tried some diplomacy here, even i don´t like diplomacy. I rather like honor (honesty).

After reading FranklinKenter post:
I actually read the limit: "once each turn" into the card, even if it was not there. Kind of wishful thinking? Even if that would be on it, its would be another draw engine making the game faster drawing more then 3 cards per turn, more then in the golden age of blaze of glory and ds9. Other draw engines are on the watchlist already... why make another one?

I think mass ship report with ❖ crew limit to 1 download due to cummulative rule, still reporting cards subsequencly still works.

Without "once each turn" on the card, ooooooh boy...... another broken card.

I guess i would be far more popular by trekcc hierachy if i say nothing or praise. After all pointing out manliv and continuuing mission before(!) it hits public, was both ignored and made me unpopular by some official. When i came back and pointed out The Final frontier and Access archive, people where like we don´t see it, we don´t see it, we wait, we wait, we need data! I do not wish to win tournaments again, beating others to give you data, so that you errata it after 6 month and bring another broken card meanwhile. Guess most people here like it this way, having many broken combinations in the meanwhile 4000 cards so that the experts can play their game.

I simply wish to play a balanced 1e, where everyone has a decent chance. With those trekcc cards, i see more unbalancing then balancing.

Uncomfortable honestly does not give you many friends but the right ones. So i think i stick to it. If it means homebrew format to have a balanced experience for everyone, then so be it.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#584022
@ShipNerd - to be clear, I think there is potential, and also I have to connections to any side of this argument. I don't have a care for the card or not.

but I'm also trying to think out in my head what the worst case scenarios actually are:

How many ❖ can someone realistically report in one turn? Let's assume for this that Report with crew only triggers one download because of cumulative.

Lets say that someone has enough engines set up that they are able to play 4 universal personnel each turn.

That draws them 4 RtP. They then need to convert these into actual usable cards.

That's probably a Masaka transformation OR a bunch of copies of an interrupt.

masaka is going to require the card play, usually, so that's one less ❖ and one less RtP per turn.

_________

I think the baseline, "fair" use of this as an engine (outside of intended use in [SKR] decks), is something as simple as in a deck, making sure you always have fodder to process ore with.
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By WeAreBack
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#586260
The trick with this draw engine would be to use something like Recreation Room or using Tribunal of Q to download a new Q the Referee which can then be discarded to download Obelisk of Masaka which in turn is used to download Maska: Transformations.

The problem with making this work with recreation room, is it works of UNIQUE [OS] cards. There are only so many unique [OS] ships you can play for free at Sherman's Planet and just one to play at Halkan Council, so you'd be putting unique personnel in the deck, diluting your draws.

Neuropressure Massage would work, but how many ❖ personnel can you play a turn in an all Vulcan deck?

Basically, you need to cycle Release this Pain directly back into the draw deck, not put it into your discard pile. That way you could include just 6-7 copies in a 200 or so card deck and have it still work without drawing Release this Pain itself. If they get caught in your discard pile, you'll start to need at least 40 copies and a bigger deck.

I suppose you could also do it by keeping your discard pile super small and using something like Process Ore or Bajoran Shrine (but not Process Ore:Mining, at least not by itself), but you would be screwed if a bunch of your losers -- I mean ❖ personnel -- all get killed at a mission and go to your discard pile, jamming up all your copies of Release this Pain behind them. This seems actually very likely to happen because these are hardly the top shelf dilemma busters, and more like the kind of group that hits a cosmic string and all die in a fiery inferno. Also, say goodbye to interrupts you love like Hidden Fighter!

Basically: this would be a powerful engine if it works, but so tricky to pull off and with so many side effects that I don't see it being so game warping that the card needs to get errata.
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By ShipNerd
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#586631
Since pointing out stuff friendly does not work anyway:

Yeah many people did not see that Continuuing MIssion, Manliv, The Final Frontier, Memorial Mission etc. etc. is overpowered until i and others used it. Give it about a year and it will be errated or part of powerfull decks. I don´t mind anymore to be ignored with all the former named cards (and others) that i pointed out in playtesting (Manlive and Continuuing Mission could be made balanced before released as i pointed it out) and later in the forum:

Access Archive is obisouly OP: No its not not its not people said. One tournament later with both player having AA including me and it became banned, LOL.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=40392&p=510330&hil ... ve#p510330

Yeah ignore the experienced players analays, even if my analasys is 90% on spot then whine after card is released that beat some player in the ground and then increase the errata list further and further. Simply think that you are as qualified to read the card as me, hossdrone or franklin kenter...

Beware of ever learning ;)

I kind of enjoy the mess the trekcc does, because i no longer play their OTFormat anyway, and take being ignored with the constructive warning with a smirk. 8)
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First Edition Rules Master
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#586650
ShipNerd wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:19 am Give it about a year and it will be errated or part of powerfull decks.
Maybe I'm a rogue opinion here, but I'm OK with this. There needs to be room for good and smart players to take a "good" card and making it "hilariously good", because taking the safe route means that you either don't get good cards or they're so circumscribed and over-defined that there's no room left for creativity and the card is all caveats and exceptions and it drowns out the gameplay.

edit: forgot to mention this, but now I found a good video to explain it. Other games have this issue as well, and Roger Neilson is in the Hockey Hall of Fame for forcing the league to add rules to close loopholes at least three times.
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By ShipNerd
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#586702
AllenGould wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:18 pm
ShipNerd wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:19 am Give it about a year and it will be errated or part of powerfull decks.
Maybe I'm a rogue opinion here, but I'm OK with this.
I am sure many experienced player like you are. I also considerd this interesting for OTF pro format. It seems to be trekcc policly to errata or ban AFTER someone cornered the play marked e.g. Manliv decks need to become world champions first before its re-balanced.

I just made the experience casual player leave OTF online environment after a while of frustration, nor are they often here in the forum. E.g. my 2 local player scenes never post here and they all like balanced cards/decks/fromats better then OTF (after they tried both).
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