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Shipping Manager
By SirDan (Dan Hamman)
 - Shipping Manager
 -  
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
#585657
Hello everyone,

I have added Temporal Narcosis to the Watch List. Someone clever noticed that using it with your own Revolving Door nets a free turn if the opponent "uses" the Door's game text to flip it. That was not the intent of the Revolving Door errata, so expect either an Emergency Ban or Errata in the next day or two.
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Director of Organized Play
By LORE (Kris Sonsteby)
 - Director of Organized Play
 -  
Architect
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
W.C.T. Chairman's Trophy winner 2014-2015
#585664
Kaiser wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:46 pm Boo! I just played that in pick-up game today, thought I might get away with it at UK Nationals, but I see Steve has already posted his own list. Oh well, another deck ruined.
I wish I were smart enough to think up broken combos. :?

Y'all are on some plane of existence I can only aspire to. :wink:
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#585665
Poor PAQ wordings and rules pedantry strike again!
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#585673
Kaiser wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:46 pm Boo! I just played that in pick-up game today, thought I might get away with it at UK Nationals, but I see Steve has already posted his own list. Oh well, another deck ruined.
I am usually very slow to pick up on whatever Wombo Combo is making the rounds, but I got three PM's about this (from three separate individuals) between last night and this afternoon.

So this trick is a victim of its own success, I think. It's so good people couldn't stop talking about it.

As I told @Winner of Borg: brilliant work!
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Director of Communications
By OKCoyote (Daniel Matteson)
 - Director of Communications
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#585676
We can correct this in "a day or two," but not Empok Nor?
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European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
#585683
OKCoyote wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:12 pm We can correct this in "a day or two," but not Empok Nor?
Definately - Temporal Narcosis was designed as a counter for several nasty cards back in the days of AU. Because of Revolving Door's Errata this pure counter card became an "offensive strategy" to be used - it took long to be seen, but now it's uncovered. To make a counter into a weapon is something completely different than Empok Nor...
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#585688
Clerasil ToB wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:28 pm
OKCoyote wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:12 pm We can correct this in "a day or two," but not Empok Nor?
Definately - Temporal Narcosis was designed as a counter for several nasty cards back in the days of AU. Because of Revolving Door's Errata this pure counter card became an "offensive strategy" to be used - it took long to be seen, but now it's uncovered. To make a counter into a weapon is something completely different than Empok Nor...
QFT.

This all said I do think that the deck is not unbeatable and I think it succombs to some of the expected top decks that may be ok with having a qtent be closed for awhile until absolutely necessary.

But I think double turns as a concept in this game should be something one never gets or only gets once in a game.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#585690
Hoss-Drone wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:16 pm
Clerasil ToB wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:28 pm
OKCoyote wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:12 pm We can correct this in "a day or two," but not Empok Nor?
Definately - Temporal Narcosis was designed as a counter for several nasty cards back in the days of AU. Because of Revolving Door's Errata this pure counter card became an "offensive strategy" to be used - it took long to be seen, but now it's uncovered. To make a counter into a weapon is something completely different than Empok Nor...
QFT.

This all said I do think that the deck is not unbeatable and I think it succombs to some of the expected top decks that may be ok with having a qtent be closed for awhile until absolutely necessary.

But I think double turns as a concept in this game should be something one never gets or only gets once in a game.
Agreed, in the days of play one draw one, an extra turn or 2 was not that big a deal, especially with Red Alert around back then, but now an extra turn is devasting, let alone in multiples.
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European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
#585692
Hoss-Drone wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:16 pm
Clerasil ToB wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:28 pm
OKCoyote wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:12 pm We can correct this in "a day or two," but not Empok Nor?
Definately - Temporal Narcosis was designed as a counter for several nasty cards back in the days of AU. Because of Revolving Door's Errata this pure counter card became an "offensive strategy" to be used - it took long to be seen, but now it's uncovered. To make a counter into a weapon is something completely different than Empok Nor...
QFT.

This all said I do think that the deck is not unbeatable and I think it succombs to some of the expected top decks that may be ok with having a qtent be closed for awhile until absolutely necessary.

But I think double turns as a concept in this game should be something one never gets or only gets once in a game.
I think you don't get it - closing Tent was killing MY game because of MY dilemma strategy with Smoke Bomb - the other two games Slaby's won have been against [CF] and [OS] . Congratulations with your [1E-AU] Door closed and even if you have the cards in hand to reopen the door - double turn for your opponent...

Yes, he has lost against Seppl, but a deck in such a "not-need" of a certain doorway is not seen very often (not to make his great build bad here!!!)...
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#585696
Devils Advocate:

[OS] has been owning the game for 3 years now... maybe adding a bit of risk to the popular builds could shake up the meta?

I'm not sure 1998-era perpetual double turns with no answer is a good risk, but maybe take this as an object lesson to design some meta-shifting cards that aren't *quite* as bonkers...

And if you REALLY still want to play TOS, run Sherman's Peak and laugh when they try to slam your AU door.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#585698
OKCoyote wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:12 pm We can correct this in "a day or two," but not Empok Nor?
Also, this happens because of the change in wording of revolving door. It’s a bug in the game code. And if you fix it, even by the most drastic (ban temporal narcosis), there’s no real harm done to other decks.


but EN has a lot more variables about what you do to fix it. Is it limit the downloads, is it really STP, etc.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#585699
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:02 pm It’s a bug in the game code.
Stupid legacy PAQ game code being not forward-compatible with CC++ :P
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Director of Communications
By OKCoyote (Daniel Matteson)
 - Director of Communications
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#585701
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:02 pm
OKCoyote wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:12 pm We can correct this in "a day or two," but not Empok Nor?
Also, this happens because of the change in wording of revolving door. It’s a bug in the game code. And if you fix it, even by the most drastic (ban temporal narcosis), there’s no real harm done to other decks.


but EN has a lot more variables about what you do to fix it. Is it limit the downloads, is it really STP, etc.
That's not the point. EN could have received a temporary banning through Worlds. How is "eventual double turns" a more necessary fix than "you don't get your turn one"?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#585704
Speaking only for myself (I am not on Balance), I agree that "it's our fault" is not a compelling reason to treat the two cases differently.

However, I think would be at least two good reasons for Balance to treat the Empok Nor interaction differently from the Temporal Narcosis interaction, if that's what they decided to do:

(1) The Empok Nor deck depends entirely on surprise. It is easily countered by any opponent who takes the de minimis defensive step of seeding Tribunal of Q and stocking It's Only A Game. (You don't even have to stock a full [Ref] tent if you don't wanna!) This defensive move is available to all decks in the game. If a player isn't willing to do it, especially at Worlds, then it isn't the game's job to remove all consequences for their refusal to defend at all -- at least, not an emergency basis.

Temporal Narcosis can be countered, but it is much harder. (You can Kevin one copy of Revolving Door, but can you Kevin all five? If so, can you survive the Oof! point loss?) Some decks (non- [1E-AU] decks, mainly) are much better at defending against Temporal Narcosis, which pushes the meta toward a specific kind of deck and cuts out a lot of diversity. That's the kind of thing that triggers my sensors, personally.

Both tricks are roughly equally devastating if they succeed, but there's an easy way to prevent the Empok Nor trick from succeeding; not so much the Narcosis trick.

(2) There are "legitimate", non-cheese Empok Nor decks which would become collateral damage of an Empok Nor ban. By contrast, the only reason to stock Temporal Narcosis in the current game is cheese. It is a 100% pure cheese card right now, and there can be no collateral damage from knocking it out.

All bans are a balancing of costs and benefits. The costs for banning Empok Nor (as I see it) are quite a bit higher, and the benefits quite a bit lower, than it would be for Temporal Narcosis... if Balance decided to follow through on its threat here.

(It is worth mentioning here that Rules is also taking a look at this interaction. "Use" is not currently well-defined for all card types, so there are some questions about the details of this combo.)
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