This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
1E World Semi-Finalist 2022
Praetor
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2022
2E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2022
#586033
I like ref cards, but the Defend Homeworld errata was a bad move because it removed the only perk to ref cards in games without cheese. Now it is a dead seed except to stop the broken stratagies we havent fixed yet.

We need to either
a) give some bonus to ref/tribunal seeding OR
b) be faster on teh trigger to kill stratagies that need a ref to counter.


The middle ground we are in is bad. (I never minded ref until this tournament where i felt like it is needed for high level play, but has no upside).
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Shipping Manager
By SirDan (Dan Hamman)
 - Shipping Manager
 -  
#586036
Do you favor a blitz on the strategies that the remaining Ref cards are out there to solve? Which of those remain that are "potent" enough to warrant a Ref pile in high level play?

...is this a question you'd feel more comfortable discussing after next weekend?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#586038
What? You don't like playing with 29 seed cards? :shock:

Sounds real familiar... I wonder where I heard that before... :shifty:
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Contender
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#586050
Other than It's Only A Game, what else compels players to pack a [Ref] deck this month?

I think everyone agrees that IOAG should be addressed. The debate was whether to address it before Worlds (by banning Empok Nor or Space-Time Portal from Worlds) or to deal with it once appropriate errata has been identified and properly tested. There was and is (obviously) disagreement on this point, but the call was to make Worlds players seed Tribunal rather than act too hastily on the problem cards.

But is there anything besides that making you think [Ref] is needed?
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E Borg Region Regional Participant 2022
#586054
pfti wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:49 pm We need to either
a) give some bonus to ref/tribunal seeding OR
b) be faster on teh trigger to kill stratagies that need a ref to counter.
c) re-add the [Ref] icon to Defend homeworld
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
2E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#586057
Deleted

Zum Totlachen....

Adding: Obelisk and Masaka is something that helps even if not facing abuse as well.

On this matter: In limited space I use: Obelisk, Scorched, It's only, Oof!, Ref, Strategema when using a Homeworld.
 
By Winner of Borg (Stefan Slaby)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Professional
1E German National Second Runner-Up 2021
2E Austrian National Champion 2020
1E Borg Region Regional Champion 2022
2E Borg Region Regional Champion 2022
#586060
and don't forget about Mirror Image, many players run KFC these days. without MI there's no reason to jump through deckbuilding hoops to play any of the various KFC clones...

please, just restore [Ref] to Defend Homeworld. this weird crusade to eliminate [Ref] cards brings all the old abusive and semi-abusive stuff back, while also taking non-abusive options away from deck builders.
if you really want to eliminate the *need* to play [Ref] cards, you need to introduce alternative counters for all the abusive stuff *first*! then, after all the major issues are covered in a different way, you can evaluate whether the [Ref] cards are still desirable.

... though i suspect that would still leave many niche interactions that can't reasonably be handled without [Ref] cards. the [Ref] mechanic is good because it allows niche counters to be played without significant cost. remember how White Deprivation used to be a rule, but was offloaded onto a [Ref] card? how would White Deprivation ever happen without the [Ref] mechanic (or being turned back into a rule)? that card does not have enough room to errata in another incentive for playing it! and non- [Ref] situational counters are never played! (remember The Wake of the Borg? nobody plays it anymore, except for all the people running illegal decks because they forgot to remove it from their QTCW.)

personally, i've always liked the [Ref] mechanic, and i'd also like to see new [Ref] cards made, for example:
something to fight Computer Crash (maybe a card that gets *one* download through on *your* turn? it should clearly not be as cheap and powerful as QIR, but could save *that* seed slot?)
something to fight two-mission wins?
come to think of it, maybe something to punish or limit Blade of Tkon?
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#586072
We could have a tournament for anyone to find all the abuse you can. We take away all the padding (the [Ref] mechanic and all cards with them on), and players are awarded for each mechanic that they manage to break that really needed the [Ref] for. And for each mechanic they are alone with, they get extra points to support diversity in decks. =)

This way we'll see quite fast what is needed and not.
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#586074
ref is at its core, a bad mechanic.

When it works, it essentially bans strategies just as bad as if they were actually banned.

When it doesn’t, it turns tournaments into coin flips where cheese can still win just by the “skill” of getting good matchups.

Let’s even take Defend Homeworld as an example.

Its proactive ability is good, arguably too good and well worth a seed slot on its own.

Its defensive ability is something that effectively says “battle at a homeworld is banned”.

It’s not a counter. A counter is something like Kevin/Amanda.

Kevin/Amanda both delay things instead of shutting a deck down completely, at the cost of a card draw and (often) point loss.

defend Homeworld completely prevents battle at a HW for decks, with the upside of putting your entire deck in play if someone risks it. And the cost (with Ref) is nothing. It doesn’t cost a card draw, or a card play, or even a full seed slot.
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2022
#586076
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:07 am ref is at its core, a bad mechanic.

When it works, it essentially bans strategies just as bad as if they were actually banned.

When it doesn’t, it turns tournaments into coin flips where cheese can still win just by the “skill” of getting good matchups.

Let’s even take Defend Homeworld as an example.

Its proactive ability is good, arguably too good and well worth a seed slot on its own.

Its defensive ability is something that effectively says “battle at a homeworld is banned”.

It’s not a counter. A counter is something like Kevin/Amanda.

Kevin/Amanda both delay things instead of shutting a deck down completely, at the cost of a card draw and (often) point loss.

defend Homeworld completely prevents battle at a HW for decks, with the upside of putting your entire deck in play if someone risks it. And the cost (with Ref) is nothing. It doesn’t cost a card draw, or a card play, or even a full seed slot.
At the risk of losing the topic, Strategema also shuts down HW attacks, making the overkill mass download on Defend Homeworld unnecessary for defense, and only meaningful as a carefully planned offensive strategy.

In general I feel like the responsive download ability on DH should be removed because it has no purpose in non-abusive strategies.

Back to the topic: I am fine with taking some time to see how things go with the removal of the [Ref] from DH, rather than a kneejerk reversal.

I am also excited to see some changes to cards to fix abusive strategies instead of relying on the [Ref] cards. Space-Time Portal probably should have been limited to 4ish personnel during the Decipher era. Also put the dreaded "Once per game" on the T'ong while you're at it. Empok Nor limit to downloading 4 equipment per player. Those seem like the worst problems left.
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#586091
geraldkw wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:55 am Space-Time Portal probably should have been limited to 4ish personnel during the Decipher era.

My magic wand fix, is a rule that report with crew = number of staffing icons. (Minimum 1).

Then you are literally reporting with the crew, and no extras.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E Borg Region Regional Participant 2022
#586093
Wohooo, now that the bad Space Time Portal is mentioned again. What about the X other "report with crew" cards? Will you demand to errata all of them? hmm?
just because your kind of players are unwilling to use the simple [Ref] mechanic?
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2022
#586094
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:51 pm My magic wand fix, is a rule that report with crew = number of staffing icons. (Minimum 1).

Then you are literally reporting with the crew, and no extras.
Not only would this fix prevent report with crew from becoming crazy powerful, but it would make more sense as well. It confused the heck out of me the first time I had an opponent drop a "report with crew" with way more personnel than just the crew. Bonus benefit, it gives players more reason to use ships with big staffing requirements.

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