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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#587551
Double Dumbass on You
Temptations of the Flesh

How can it be done?

Goddess of Empathy
Attempt with 11 people and hope you get lucky that a [Cmd] is left over.
Amanda DDOY
Amanda Rogers: Protector
Borg can Adapt


So this one I'm curious of timing.... use a ship that can [DL] a person. When would that need to be done? After the targets are selected for DDOY? I wouldn't want to [DL] only to find out that that person is now stopped by DDOY but it has to happen before the mission attempt ends for lack of any personnel present.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#587557
You could [DL] a person after Double Dumbass's response step, at the very start of its resolution step. That would be too late for the [DL] target to be targeted.

I think Condition Red might have some potential against the combo, but haven't fishbowled it.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#587591
Clerasil ToB wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:34 pm But not for being targeted by a second played DDOY I presume...
Correct.
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By Kaiser
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Semi-Finalist 2023
Architect
#587595
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:43 am I think Condition Red might have some potential against the combo, but haven't fishbowled it.
It might! But against the Romulan version I played this time the icons didn't really matter much as I usually had enough Dumbasses to just stop everyone in the attempt. I don't think anybody actually encountered the follow-up dilemma in four games. By the time my opponents started attempting, I usually had three or four copies in hand, and if I expected aggressive attempts, I hid TOTF behind an initial wall to buy me more time to go digging.
This version didn't even include any discard pile retrieval, could easily run Reading Glasses instead of Risk (both cards which I consider arlarmingly and worryingly good, but not critical to the deck) if you still want to keep 16 dilemmas.
I think running Goddess isn't a terrible solution for the moment, what with the smokebomb nonsense also in the mix, and we actually had Goddess in at least one of the decks in the field already. Or just play Borg, but I was really hoping we wouldn't get even more incentive to do that. :?
If the card is considered problematic, I don't have a good suggestion on how to change it at this point. DDOY is a really fun card with its versatility to stop yourself in some situations to prevent a fate worse than being stopped, or to target personnel outside the current attempt. It has also made me look at several underplayed dilemmas (Eye to Eye, Archaic Ritual, Smell Burning/More of your Kind) to set up effects, I don't really want to see it nerfed to point where it's no longer worth playing at all.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#587596
Spitballing, but it only plays during a dilemma, so what about a once-per-game-per-card-title limit?

NOTE: I do not have anything to do with balance errata (except to approve its rules text).
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#587597
I get that the number-of-copies-per-deck rule was tried in the past, and no one really played it, but I'd be interested in a icon that limits the copies per deck. Leave it as default infinite copies, but for some cards, especially interrupts, it might be useful to limit.

Also less mental bookkeeping them once per game per dilemma title. (Which I like from a high level, but the tracking might be a bit much)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#587598
Wait... why doesn't the [DL] trick work?

This is my understanding of the timing:

1 TotF stops people
1.0 Response Window to dilemma stops Opens
1.1 I pass, Opponent plays DDOY1
1.1.0 Response window to DDOY1 Opens
1.1.1 I pass, opponent passes
1.1.2 DDOY1 stops people
1.1.3 DDOY1 is discarded
1.2 I pass, Opponent plays DDOY2
1.2.0 Response Window to DDOY2 opens
1.2.1 I pass, Opponent passes
1.2.2 DDOY2 stops more people
1.2.3 DDOY2 is discarded
1.3 I pass, Opponent passes
***AT THIS POINT THE VALID RESPONSE WINDOW TO THE DILEMMA STOPS IS CLOSED SO NO MORE DDOYs***
2. Check Conditions
2.1a if requirements present, discard Dilemma, continue to next dilemma
2.1b if requirements not present, replace dilemma, crew or away team stopped

Assuming I'm correct, why can't I [DL] somebody with a [Cmd] into play at step 2 and clear the dilemma without my opponent getting a chance to DDOY them, since at that point there's no dilemma stop for DDOY to respond *to*?
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#587606
If it's end up being errata'd to once per card title, DDAoY errata could also make it 'place on dilemma'. In OTF, when that dilemma is discarded, it is removed from game; the DDAoY goes with it. If played via tabletop, the interrupt and the dilemma are together on the table for both players to review. If playing on Lackey, it goes to the Removed tab where again it would remain with the dilemma allowing both players to review.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#587608
My in-game response would be to favor multiple attempts of 6 rather than attempts of 11, so you can burn more copies of DDOY.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#587612
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:13 pm Wait... why doesn't the [DL] trick work?

This is my understanding of the timing:

1 TotF stops people
1.0 Response Window to dilemma stops Opens
1.1 I pass, Opponent plays DDOY1
Here's the error: DDOY is not a response to the dilemma encounter. It's a "just-after" response to the dilemma's resolution.

I leave the consequences of exactly how this plays out as an exercise to the reader, because my kids are clamoring to be taken to the library. :)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#587613
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:25 pm
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:13 pm Wait... why doesn't the [DL] trick work?

This is my understanding of the timing:

1 TotF stops people
1.0 Response Window to dilemma stops Opens
1.1 I pass, Opponent plays DDOY1
Here's the error: DDOY is not a response to the dilemma encounter. It's a "just-after" response to the dilemma's resolution.

I leave the consequences of exactly how this plays out as an exercise to the reader, because my kids are clamoring to be taken to the library. :)
I'm not following.

Double Dumbass on You
Plays when a dilemma has just stopped any number of personnel. Choose a crew or Away Team at that location and randomly stop up to that many additional personnel.
Emphasis mine. With Temptations of the Flesh there's two response windows: after the initial stop of (presumably) 5 personnel, and when checking the conditions, if failure happens, then X remaining personnel are stopped by the dilemma and another X personnel at the same location can also get stopped.

However, DDOY responds to STOPS, so it's a response to a subaction of the dilemma, not part of the resolution of the dilemma itself. To illustrate... I can't try to play DDOY in response to my opponent encountering Armus - Skin of Evil because there's no stop to respond to... dude gets whacked, dilemma goes away.

So going back to DDOY and TotF, there's two response windows when the dilemma stops people. Outside of those two windows, and specifically between them, I should be able to [DL] a [Cmd] guy and meet the requirements. There's no stop in DDOY to respond to.

What am I missing?
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#587614
@Armus, I don't think you are missing anything and I think you are correct. Who is saying you are incorrect?
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