This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
User avatar
European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
#587616
Probably one fact I've already discussed with James and was a discussion at our latest tournament:

When actually does a mission attempt ends? To be more precise - when can you check the passing condition of TwtF? Can you check it, if there is no crew or away team left because everyone is stopped (f.e. attempt with only one personnel)? Can you then check with NO ONE LEFT if you pass the requirements of that dilemma and then make a [DL] to a NON EXISTING crew or away team which joins that NON EXISTING crew or away team and continues that mission?

IMO this is the most important key point that needs clarification in the rules! If the whole crew or away team is stopped by the first part of a dilemma, does this crew or away team even "continues" to a probable second part of that same dilemma (a passing requirement or something else), or is the mission attempt simply over in that instance, when everybody is stopped? The phrase "Discard dilemma" should override everything above of course, because of the meaning of that phrase :P

Of course, if one guy continues, no DDOY is played to stop that guy, a [DL] can bring you the proper [Cmd] to pass that dilemma (with no more response window for DDOY)...
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#587618
Clerasil ToB wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:37 pm Probably one fact I've already discussed with James and was a discussion at our latest tournament:

When actually does a mission attempt ends? To be more precise - when can you check the passing condition of TwtF? Can you check it, if there is no crew or away team left because everyone is stopped (f.e. attempt with only one personnel)? Can you then check with NO ONE LEFT if you pass the requirements of that dilemma and then make a [DL] to a NON EXISTING crew or away team which joins that NON EXISTING crew or away team and continues that mission?

IMO this is the most important key point that needs clarification in the rules! If the whole crew or away team is stopped by the first part of a dilemma, does this crew or away team even "continues" to a probable second part of that same dilemma (a passing requirement or something else), or is the mission attempt simply over in that instance, when everybody is stopped? The phrase "Discard dilemma" should override everything above of course, because of the meaning of that phrase :P

Of course, if one guy continues, no DDOY is played to stop that guy, a [DL] can bring you the proper [Cmd] to pass that dilemma (with no more response window for DDOY)...
Normally I would agree with the whole "all the crew got stopped so put the dilemma back under" theory, but in this case, the magic of [DL] would seem to prevail.

So I hit TotF with an 8-man crew. 5 get stopped. My opponent plays DDOY to stop the 3 valid targets, leaving me with no unstopped people. THEN the response window closes (assuming both players pass after the DDOY), THEN the dilemma goes back under for lack of target. It's linear.

So therefore, I should be able to slide a [DL] in between the response window closing and the "oops all stopped" putting the dilemma back under. That's what suspends-play speed is, is it not?
User avatar
European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
#587619
A [DL] special download may download anywhere at the target location (see "here"). One classic trick is to begin a mission attempt with Starship Enterprise in orbit, encounter the first dilemma, then use the ship's [DL] to download a personnel who can solve that dilemma directly to the planet, where that personnel immediately joins the Away Team and the mission attempt.
Directly out of the rules book.

Joins the Away Team and the mission attempt - can the downloaded personnel joins NO away team and therefore NO mission attempt?
User avatar
European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
#587620
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:53 pm
So therefore, I should be able to slide a [DL] in between the response window closing and the "oops all stopped" putting the dilemma back under. That's what suspends-play speed is, is it not?
I don't think you even get to the "oops all stopped" point in TwtF with 0 personnel at all...
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#587621
Clerasil ToB wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:08 pm
A [DL] special download may download anywhere at the target location (see "here"). One classic trick is to begin a mission attempt with Starship Enterprise in orbit, encounter the first dilemma, then use the ship's [DL] to download a personnel who can solve that dilemma directly to the planet, where that personnel immediately joins the Away Team and the mission attempt.
Directly out of the rules book.

Joins the Away Team and the mission attempt - can the downloaded personnel joins NO away team and therefore NO mission attempt?
I would think yes because of the suspend-play timing. You make a crew of one before the dilemma and mission attempt realize there's a crew of zero.

I'll say one thing. This discussion is giving me a headache. Maybe I'll play in the 2e Masters next month, at least there I presumably know how the rules work... :?
User avatar
 
By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#587622
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:25 pm
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:20 pm @Armus, I don't think you are missing anything and I think you are correct. Who is saying you are incorrect?
Our Rules Master, @BCSWowbagger ... it's making me think twice...
Until it's blue...
User avatar
European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
#587623
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:13 pm
I would think yes because of the suspend-play timing. You make a crew of one before the dilemma and mission attempt realize there's a crew of zero.
Let's continue head-spinning a little bit with that:

Microvirus

You don't have those very difficult requirements, so one is killed and everyone is stopped. If I understand you correctly, if you have a ship with [DL] in orbit you can then download a personnel after dilemma's resolution (everyone stopped because of unless, one killed) and because of the Discard Dilemma IMMEDIATELY face the next dilemma?

(Yes of course, you can also do that in another mission attempt the same turn, but so you could avoid Villagers With Torches or something like that...)
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#587627
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:50 pm What am I missing?
*settles back down to reread, now that no kids are literally shouting in my ear to go the library, so I can see whether I was too hasty initially*

Ah. I think I partly misread you (I thought you were putting DDOY in the responses window, not the just-after window; actually you seem to have just been using terminology I tend to associate with the former) and partly assumed something you didn't explicitly state (I assumed opponent would continue spamming DDOY until your entire away team was stopped, but your scenario doesn't actually spell that out).

Here is how Rules has explained [DL] + DDOY to people who've asked for the past week or so:
You attempt with 4 personnel and hit Temptations, which targets all 4 personnel to stop (step 1 - initiation). There are, presumably, no valid responses (step 2 - responses). When the response step ends and the resolution step begins, "the original action can no longer be responded to or otherwise modified" (step 3 - resolution), including the set of targeted personnel. You can now activate the [DL] right here, after the resolution step begins but before anyone actually gets stopped. The newly downloaded personnel cannot be targeted by Temptations, because Temptations' targeting step is over. Temptations stops the original 4 and the 5th continues. [This is based on actions - step 3: resolution and is related to our ruling on Empathic Touch a year or two ago.]

Opponent can now play Double Dumbass, which is a "just-after" response and thus happens immediately after resolution. Now the freshly downloaded guy can be stopped (and will be, since he's the only valid target). However (if you are playing in Open and/or have some way around General Quarters), you can now pull the same trick again: wait until Double Dumbass's targeting is locked and its resolution step begins, then use a [DL] to download another person to carry on after your first guy gets stopped.
(Opponent could, of course, then play another Double Dumbass, ad infinitum, until either you stop downloading people or something else causes the just-after response window to close.)

This basically agrees with your scenario, Armus. Once opponent passes on playing another DDOY (at your Step 1.3), you are home-free to [DL] a personnel into the attempting crew... at least, as long as you still legally have an attempting crew to download into! Your scenario didn't specify that opponent keeps spamming DDOY until all your personnel are stopped, so there are presumably still people in the attempting crew, so your [DL] unambiguously works.

The problem -- as you have all discovered now here on page 2 -- is that niggling problem of whether you still have to have personnel in the "attempting crew" for that crew (or the attempt) to still exist and be downloaded to. Rules has deliberately avoiding that question, because

(1) there's not actually a clear answer, because [DL] timing is ridiculous,

(2) it looked at the time like it wasn't necessary to answer that question, because we could sidestep it with the above answer where you do the [DL] during the resolution step rather than after opponent passes, and

(3) the very question is exactly the kind of [DL] bullcrap nonsense where there's no entirely sane or satisfying answer, which is exactly why Rules has been so restrictive about new [DL] the past couple of years. They always end in tears.

But I guess we're not going to be able to avoid it after all, eh? We're going to have to rule on whether you can [DL] cards into an empty crew, and I'm going to hate it no matter how we rule it. Oh, well. I signed up for the job, so we'll get it figured out somehow. The rest of you are free to continue debating the point. I'll withdraw to the Rules Cave now until the Committee grants me the boon of bluetext or a permanent ruling, but rest assured I am still reading everything as always.
StateofSTCCG, who is currently listed as a forum troll [unconstructive and disruptive behavior], made this post. Responding to forum trolls is discouraged.
Display this post.
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#587885
Clerasil ToB wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:25 pm
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:13 pm
I would think yes because of the suspend-play timing. You make a crew of one before the dilemma and mission attempt realize there's a crew of zero.
Let's continue head-spinning a little bit with that:

Microvirus

You don't have those very difficult requirements, so one is killed and everyone is stopped. If I understand you correctly, if you have a ship with [DL] in orbit you can then download a personnel after dilemma's resolution (everyone stopped because of unless, one killed) and because of the Discard Dilemma IMMEDIATELY face the next dilemma?

(Yes of course, you can also do that in another mission attempt the same turn, but so you could avoid Villagers With Torches or something like that...)
Based on my previously-outlined logic, the short answer would have to be YES that works!

Also good tech for avoiding additional Punishment Box/Nuclear Wessels stops and other beginning of the attempt nonsense (since you aren't initiating a new attempt but continuing the current one!)

At least that's how I think it IS right now. Whether or not it OUGHT to be like that is a much broader conversation.
User avatar
European OP Coordinator
 - European OP Coordinator
 -  
#588137
Armus wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:20 am
Based on my previously-outlined logic, the short answer would have to be YES that works!
I completely agree that with your previously-outlined logic the only possibly answer could be YES, but any previously-outlined logic could be proven wrong if another, similar, but unrecognized example is brought up, and shows you, that this logic might not be so perfect or good or whatever as it has been on first sight...

Brian, do you really think, Microvirus should work that way (ignoring your previously-outlined logic)?


Nevertheless - who is right or wrong - we have online Masters with a quite big crowd starting in 10 days - at least an official ruling about the dilemma timing stuff should be made VERY quickly because it's the more basic question here. In addition of course Dumbass...
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#588157
Mugato wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:22 pm Doesn't the cumulative rule apply to DDOY when facing one Temptations of the flesh?

The best defense I saw was to attempt with a big team with lots of [Cmd]
This was already covered. Short answer is no.
1EFQ: Game of two halves

Honestly, I don’t think I’ve re[…]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Happy birthday to @Takket ! :D :thumbsup: […]

Opponents turn

Remodulation