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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#588887
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:10 pm
pfti wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:30 pm Fix the region rule now!
Did I miss something? What needs to be fixed now? You can no longer insert locations into regions, with the exception of Bajoran Wormhole.
That cards that specify region apply in any quadrant that has that region.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#588889
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:10 pm
pfti wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:30 pm Fix the region rule now!
Did I miss something? What needs to be fixed now? You can no longer insert locations into regions, with the exception of Bajoran Wormhole.
I think he meant bringing the Region Rule in line with the homeworld rule, so that Mirror Badlands and Alpha Badlands (and other regions with locations in multiple quadrants) aren't all treated the same and quadrant icons matter again.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#588892
Armus wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:34 pm
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:10 pm
pfti wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:30 pm Fix the region rule now!
Did I miss something? What needs to be fixed now? You can no longer insert locations into regions, with the exception of Bajoran Wormhole.
I think he meant bringing the Region Rule in line with the homeworld rule, so that Mirror Badlands and Alpha Badlands (and other regions with locations in multiple quadrants) aren't all treated the same and quadrant icons matter again.
Oh, Roger that!
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#589076
Yes, TFF needs to be toned down. I can tell from how it is designed, however, that the intention was to make a [OS] work simillar to a [1E-TNG] in terms of how many seed cards it "costs."

You can tell this from the minimum seed cards to make each deck work and get 2 free plays:
[1E-TNG]
(1) Continuing Mission
(2) Attention All Hands
(3) An outpost (or alternatively a Mission II with outpost attached to save seed slot)

[OS]
(1) The Final Frontier
(2) Alternate Universe Door
(3) An outpost (or alternatively a Mission II with outpost attached to save seed slot)

I think the intention was that since Continuing Mission gives you a free draw when you play certain personnel once per turn, this made it superior to TFF in certain ways. Thus, instead of a ❖ ship download and one of your personnel having to be ❖ to a matching outpost, TFF let you have any [OS] ship and any personnel, even unique ones.

The issue is that [OS] personnel are just have MORE SKILLS each than [1E-TNG].
And if you are willing to use just 2 more seed slots, drawing cards is easier as [OS] [Fed], as you have not only Risk is Our Business, Five-Year Mission but can also use Risk is Our Business to grab Recreation Room.

Also, nothing stops you from seeding Halkan Council with I.S.S. Enterprise already targeted by a couple of objectives, like Study Divergent history .
You can even seed Earth with office of the President and Study divergent history, and then take your mission specialists there.

So TFF should:
-Not be playable if you already have a time location in play.
-Add Risk is Our Business to nullified cards.
-Cause any personnel at your outpost who are not native to the same quadrant to be immediately discarded.
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By Kaiser
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Semi-Finalist 2023
Architect
#589078
WeAreBack wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:51 pm So TFF should:
-Not be playable if you already have a time location in play.
-Add Risk is Our Business to nullified cards.
-Cause any personnel at your outpost who are not native to the same quadrant to be immediately discarded.
I've said before that I don't have a good solution on how to tackle this (and maybe I'm misunderstanding something here), but just as some input, none of those three changes would have made any difference in my recent TOS builds. You don't need TLs, Risk, or non-native personnel to have a deck that out-draws and out-speeds most other decks simply by the braindead free plays and, as you correctly say, the sheer quality of the personnel available even without jumping through additional hoops.

(Personally, I'd rather see TFF toned down quite heavily in terms of reporting power/flexibility, if that means we get back access to non- [OS] personnel to do weird stuff, but I guess that ship has sailed.)
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#589079
Kaiser wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:14 pm(Personally, I'd rather see TFF toned down quite heavily in terms of reporting power/flexibility, if that means we get back access to non- [OS] personnel to do weird stuff, but I guess that ship has sailed.)
No, that's actually on the table. We are willing to unerrata or re-errata a card if we feel we missed on the first one.

-crp
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#589084
Ah, apologies, I should have said we should ALSO add the restrictions I listed. This would be in addition to scaling back things like the ship download, and either not allowing free reports of [NA] [OS] [1E-AU] to aligned outposts, or possibly requiring one of the reports each turn to be ❖.

I would also be open to restricting Five-Year Mission, as others have suggested, but I think Risk is our Business is the better card, not just because as long as people get a free ship download on Turn 1 that they can then put at a mission with 23rd Century in lore, but because it gets recreation room and where no man has gone before to allow even more drawing.

As far as allowing non- [OS] cards to be played using a card play, this wouldn't be consistent with restrictions ions on [1E-DS9] and [1E-TNG]. And in fact, TFF allows non- [OS] seed phase downloads, which [1E-DS9] and [1E-TNG] do not get.

However, this limitation causes another problem: Both [1E-TNG] and [1E-DS9] are able to permanently escape Computer Crash by seeding a copy of Quark's Isolinear Rods; TNG discards them to download 10 and 01, DS9 keeps the rods in play by using Quark's Bar (or another method) to download Quark so the Rods stay in play. If TFF keeps non- [OS] cards out, they should receive some way of answering this.
Last edited by WeAreBack on Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#589088
I'll add my :twocents: .

TFF is actually pretty close to other reporting engines, so I don't honestly think alot should change as far as free reports since there are already some drawbacks. I would be in favor of keeping the free reports as is, the restrictions as is, but keep is so you cannot play anything but [OS] - era ships. I think if TFF was only that, everyone could be happy.

The imbalance, IMO, is with the downloadable ship. The fix, potentially, could be one of two things.

1) Just kill the ability to download the ship entirely. The speed jump with TFF comes from downloading a ship that then downloads a crew which downloads something else.

2) Keep the ship downloadability, but it must be done at the start of your turn and you cannot draw cards that turn. That is a reasonable cost for downloading a ship, IMO.

Another thought...there seems to be alot of hate for Risk. But, you cannot change the mechanics for risk without also changing the mechanics for The Neutral Zone. It has essentially the same functionality/bonus + for the Rommies.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#589150
stressedoutatumc wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:40 pm Another thought...there seems to be alot of hate for Risk. But, you cannot change the mechanics for risk without also changing the mechanics for The Neutral Zone. It has essentially the same functionality/bonus + for the Rommies.
to me, that's a good argument for changing one but not the other. let each aff/sub have different ways of drawing cards.

The otehr issue is that [1E-Rom] [OS] isn't as strong, right?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#589157
boromirofborg wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:03 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:40 pm Another thought...there seems to be alot of hate for Risk. But, you cannot change the mechanics for risk without also changing the mechanics for The Neutral Zone. It has essentially the same functionality/bonus + for the Rommies.
to me, that's a good argument for changing one but not the other. let each aff/sub have different ways of drawing cards.

The otehr issue is that [1E-Rom] [OS] isn't as strong, right?
[OS] [1E-Rom] is plenty strong, just different than [OS] [Fed] .

Fed is pure solving power. Romulan is mostly solving power (not quite as good as Fed but not too shabby, ESPECIALLY in the NZ where they can all grab their toys), but also bonus point power and their ships get really powerful to the point of almost being untouchable in the time frame needed to win the game.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E Austrian National Runner-Up 2023
1E German National Second Runner-Up 2024
#589161
I think the ship download should not be for a unique ship.
Downloading a unique ship gives us the ability to download the captain of the ship as well and that leads to downloads of ready room door with make it so and to downloads of objectives with taking charge.

And I agree that TFF is not the only problem in [OS] Decks.
Maybe get rid of some [OS] and make them usable for [1E-TNG] , [CF] and [DS9] as well or tune down some other cards.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#589264
boromirofborg wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:03 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:40 pm Another thought...there seems to be alot of hate for Risk. But, you cannot change the mechanics for risk without also changing the mechanics for The Neutral Zone. It has essentially the same functionality/bonus + for the Rommies.
to me, that's a good argument for changing one but not the other. let each aff/sub have different ways of drawing cards.

The otehr issue is that [1E-Rom] [OS] isn't as strong, right?
I would argue they are stronger. Or, at least, they feel stronger to me given how I play and the other bonuses they get for The Neutral Zone. I find it easier to control the spaceline and solve missions efficiently when I'm using TOS Roms.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#589265
Armus wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:25 pm
boromirofborg wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:03 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:40 pm Another thought...there seems to be alot of hate for Risk. But, you cannot change the mechanics for risk without also changing the mechanics for The Neutral Zone. It has essentially the same functionality/bonus + for the Rommies.
to me, that's a good argument for changing one but not the other. let each aff/sub have different ways of drawing cards.

The otehr issue is that [1E-Rom] [OS] isn't as strong, right?
[OS] [1E-Rom] is plenty strong, just different than [OS] [Fed] .

Fed is pure solving power. Romulan is mostly solving power (not quite as good as Fed but not too shabby, ESPECIALLY in the NZ where they can all grab their toys), but also bonus point power and their ships get really powerful to the point of almost being untouchable in the time frame needed to win the game.
I agree. I'm wondering if the real issue is not so much the way that TOS Fed draws or even free plays, but more about the high-end power of some of the cards. While I'd hate to see some of the mechanics go, the fact they have access to skill monsters that can be multiplied through Temporal Befactor along with dilemma killers like McCoy and Nilz Baris...that's just alot of ammo to get through dilemma on top of Preserver Obelisk to add bonus points. Would TOS Fed and the Final Frontier look as scary and unbalanced if McCoy and Nilz had errata to kill their nulification ability and Preserver Obelisk was limited to once per game and the download of the ship for the FF had to happen at the start of your first urn and you weren't able to draw cards or download anything else that turn? I think not, to be honest.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#589275
I'm reading very different prescriptions for how to get [OS] to the desired power level, and I'm confused, and then it clicks: do we even have a community consensus on what the desired power level of [OS] is?

What is the desired power level of [OS], according to the community?

Speaking as a designer on The Cage for a moment, I will tell you Design's intentions regarding [OS] [Fed] in particular:

Sherman's Peak [OS] [Fed]: Should be a little bit faster than (maybe 0.5 turns), but also slightly more vulnerable to attack than, [1E-TNG] [Fed] powered by Finest Crew in the Fleet. In terms of win rate, should be roughly on par with or a little behind [EE] [Fed] or [1E-DQ] [Fed] (which we perceived at the time to be around the top of the [Fed] heap).

The Final Frontier [OS] [Fed]: Should be a simple card for people who want an easy-to-build deck, but the tradeoff is that it should be slightly less powerful than [1E-TNG] [Fed] powered by Finest Crew in the Fleet, closer in pace and power to Here By Invitation (which we at the time perceived as being near the bottom of the [Fed] tier list).

Obviously, we missed these targets by a wide margin (Design is much harder than I gave it credit for before I designed), and [OS] [Fed] in general and The Final Frontier in particular ended up way ahead of what we wanted. But did we want the right things? After years of [OS] strength, does the community want [OS] hammered down to where we originally wanted them, or not that far, or even farther?

(The Cage was specifically focused on [OS] [Fed], but, remember, even though [Fed] dominates the conversation, [OS] also includes [Kli], [1E-Rom], androids, and arguably Khan. How close are all of them to the desired benchmarks?)
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#589286
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:58 pm I'm reading very different prescriptions for how to get [OS] to the desired power level, and I'm confused, and then it clicks: do we even have a community consensus on what the desired power level of [OS] is?
I think this is the central question. Every affiliation, every era seem to have a basic way to report 2 people for free and draw some extra cards. I'm speaking generally, so please forgive me if I am overlooking, but this at least feels correct. That's what I was saying in my last post...I don't think it's really the FF, but TOS Feds that may be the imbalance. Feds generally are, but I think they outpace every other era of Feds...at least off-hand (and I'm happy to be argued wrong).
What is the desired power level of [OS], according to the community?
I think they should be strong, and I don't even think they generally are inappropriately so...person to person. The more I think about it, [OS] [Fed] creeps above the power curve with the combination of skill monsters, equipment, and dilemma nullification/defeaters they have at their disposal in combination with the ability to generate bonus points through Preserver Obelisk and download through General Order 7. They are just extremely versatile in ways that other eras cannot be [not because of the Final Frontier (especially if the ship downloading is taken off or nerfed significantly)] but because of the combination of tools they have been granted. No other affiliation, maybe than [Bor], can dial a skill or dillema-defeating tool like TOS Fed can especially since TOS fed have the added [DL] that eras like TNG and DS9 lack, for the most part.
Speaking as a designer on The Cage for a moment, I will tell you Design's intentions regarding [OS] [Fed] in particular:

Sherman's Peak [OS] [Fed]: Should be a little bit faster than (maybe 0.5 turns), but also slightly more vulnerable to attack than, [1E-TNG] [Fed] powered by Finest Crew in the Fleet. In terms of win rate, should be roughly on par with or a little behind [EE] [Fed] or [1E-DQ] [Fed] (which we perceived at the time to be around the top of the [Fed] heap).
I think this is true mechanically, but not when you consider the skill/ability combinations of TOS, particularly with [Fed]. Meaning, if you just look at engines, the speed is comparable, perhaps...but the value added with the available personnel...I don' think this is the pecking order.
The Final Frontier [OS] [Fed]: Should be a simple card for people who want an easy-to-build deck, but the tradeoff is that it should be slightly less powerful than [1E-TNG] [Fed] powered by Finest Crew in the Fleet, closer in pace and power to Here By Invitation (which we at the time perceived as being near the bottom of the [Fed] tier list).
I never thought of the Final Frontier as something for an easy to build deck, but rather offered more versatility than a time location deck, since you are kinda locked to that location. One of the things I don't like about the ban is that there really isn't a choice BUT to use Sherman's Planet (which should also be errata'd to have 23rd century). Except for the ship downloadability, it just offers two free reports at a reasonable cost.
Obviously, we missed these targets by a wide margin (Design is much harder than I gave it credit for before I designed), and [OS] [Fed] in general and The Final Frontier in particular ended up way ahead of what we wanted. But did we want the right things? After years of [OS] strength, does the community want [OS] hammered down to where we originally wanted them, or not that far, or even farther?
No, I wouldn't advocate for a nuking of TOS strength as a blanket move, but instead pinpoint and address the specific points that make them overpowered without taking the versatility of TFF away. If anything, this is a call to make the other eras stronger.

(The Cage was specifically focused on [OS] [Fed], but, remember, even though [Fed] dominates the conversation, [OS] also includes [Kli], [1E-Rom], androids, and arguably Khan. How close are all of them to the desired benchmarks?)
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